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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5402051" data-attributes="member: 5834">reI built a vicious grappling monk. Monks in my campaigns have never had problems. But we don't use the point buy. Point buy makes monks nearly unplayable due to needing four at least good stats.The rogue's lack of ability can be borne out in testing. No idea why it hasn't been changed yet by the game designers of 3E and 4E. I doubt my group is so far outside the norm that the entire time 3E has been out no one in my group has ever played a single-classed rogue. There have been some multiclass rogues. But no one has played a single class rogue because of their liabilities.I give wizards obstacles on purpose. I prefer wizards that help the group. Wizards that try to be the big, bad man in our campaigns get focus fired to death. Usually they don't last long. One decent archer or an opposing caster can usually annihilate a blaster caster.None of my players pick bad spells. Don't know many that do unless they don't know the game.Clerics in our parties are usually healers and buffers. Clerics that don't bother to heal and buff get parties killed. Is the DM supposed to play the opposition so weak that the cleric shouldn't be loading up on Death Wards, Resist Energies, and the like and casting massive heals to counter the insane damage output of the enemies?I don't play in games where the cleric gets to do much else but heal. It's the cleric's job to heal. If someone wants to play a cleric damage dealer, then let them try to make a cleric focused on damage dealing to replace the arcane caster or a melee class.Clerics in our campaigns do not have time to drop offensive spells. They are mostly focused on keeping the party alive against powerful enemies bent on killing them. If they don't do their job well, then the party dies and the enemy wins.I have never understood campaigns where the healer's don't spend the majority of their time healing, buffing, and countering negative effects. Those parties must be going up against some seriously weak enemies.No one plays druids very often either in our campaigns. Their abilities start to become unfocused and weak against high level adversaries. But that usually doesn't start happening until lvl 15 when their animal becomes more of a nuisance. Though I think a domain focused druid would probably still be effective. They do have some nice spells.You could probably do it and be serviceable in our games. You wouldn't be on par with other classes, but you would be ok for the majority of encounters. The place where you were experience the most pain would be the end encounters against the BBEG with the plethora of harsh abilities and the army of demons or powerful NPCs.That's the primary area where rogues show their weaknesses. When you're fighting creatures like Balors or high powered liches or dragons with fear auras, paralyzing touches, gaze attacks, AoE fort and will based saves, and they're flying or invisible and the like. Then you become a sort of distraction to the cleric as he has to spend the most resources to keep you alive if you move into the battle.As far as most of the random encounters building up to the end game encounters, you do fine.Fighters have bravery now. Helps quite a bit.High end fear saves are pretty darn high. Not at all easy to beat. They do. but at least most of the other classes can make their Fort saves if the cleric runs out of restorations. He's probably going to spend a few on the arcane casters first. They know from experience. D&D is a nebulous game. But DMs are to assume that experienced enemies know what they're facing. Robed, no armor guy is a caster. Smart casters wait to engage at the right moment. Well, you're right about the arcane casters that open up looking to hammer. They usually get targeted before the rogue. The rogue is usually the first if the BBEG is looking to take someone out quick and he sees light armor, light weapon fighter type. You get hit first. Poison works off caster level now for curing. That better be a darn good scroll or you might not get rid of the poison. And the damage can be done with one hit and you are hammered. Take a CR 12 Purple worm. Poison DC 25. You have to make a DC 25 caster level check to neutralize the poison now. It last for six rounds. You have to roll three consecutive saves to get rid of it by saving throw. 1d4 str per damage. Everytime it stings you, a new poison cycle starts.Poison works immediately now and is round to round not after a minute. And can last for multiple rounds and require multiple saves to clean from your system. Poison is far more dangerous and the rogue is still weak against it. For average creatures, not BBEGs.   saves at high level make or break classes. I doubt you will always have a counter.And other classes do not have things they are weak against. Fighters and barbarians hammer as hard against anything they fight. Against evil Paladins reign supreme. Against everything else they still hit pretty hard and often. And their immunities make them harder to kill than any other class. Paladins are sickeningly beastly now. I love beastly paladins. But the rogue still needs some love.Rangers are limited by their favored enemies. But their strong BAB and archer builds still make them darn tough against non-favored enemies.Monks are vicious when flurrying. They have no reason not to flurry. And Amulet of Mighty Firsts and Brass Knuckles add a lot of the class. The multiple ability scores hold them back in standard point buy campaigns, but not in campaigns where stats are rolled. Roll well and you can make one heckuva bad to the bone monk. True. Nice weapons can help a rogue overcome damage reduction. Just like any class. Inquisitors can enhance their attacks with spells.Monks get better BAB when flurrying and far more attacks without the feat cost to rogues.Clerics can seriously enhance themselves with spells.Rogues need some work. I hope they get some in the future. I like the rogue concept. Don't like how it plays at high level. I want to see some of the sacred cows of the rogue thrown out like only one good save and the focus on trap finding. I want to see the rogue made into the type of class that rivals monks, rangers, inquisitors, bards, and all the other medium BAB classes when people are making choices of what to play.I want a rogue to be made with the same kind of love the paladin, ranger, monk, bard, and inquisitor had put into them. All of them have two plus good saves and the ability to help a group or excel individually. Every ounce of their uniqueness isn't tied to two abilities: trapfinding and sneak attack.More love for the rogue so that in the future multiple trapfinding classes are incorporated and the rogue is but another equal option amongst many for someone to play to high level.</blockquote>

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