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<blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 4362980" data-attributes="member: 4722">I'd say just get rid of chain shirt, but you're right - it's a topic for another thread. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />A lot of things in 3E suffered from lazy design, clerics chief among them. While I don't like 4E, I do appreciate the fact that the designers weren't afraid to look at something and say, &quot;Man, this sucks. Let's change it.&quot;Anyway... It does need a good beatdown with the nerf bat, though - reduce its armor, but keep the BAB/weapons (it only gets simple anyway). The major part of its power comes from being able to choose ANY spell, and having domains on top. Cutting down their spell selection (or at least diversifying it) would go a long way to getting away from the cookie-cutter syndrome (another problem with clerics). Maybe borrow a few spells from the druid list for nature clerics, or the paladin list for war clerics.Not all clerics should (or would) be able to turn/rebuke undead. Give them unique powers dependent on their gods' portfolio(s), akin to the domain powers, and then drop the domain powers. I was thinking of divvying them up into four broad groups - combat, support, healer, and utility. Each group would have its own weapon/armor profs, abilities, and spell list. Domains would then fall into each group, and you'd get additional skills (over and above the base list) based on the domains you get. Your god determines your role and the domains.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kerrick, post: 4362980, member: 4722"] I'd say just get rid of chain shirt, but you're right - it's a topic for another thread. :) A lot of things in 3E suffered from lazy design, clerics chief among them. While I don't like 4E, I do appreciate the fact that the designers weren't afraid to look at something and say, "Man, this sucks. Let's change it." Anyway... It does need a good beatdown with the nerf bat, though - reduce its armor, but keep the BAB/weapons (it only gets simple anyway). The major part of its power comes from being able to choose ANY spell, and having domains on top. Cutting down their spell selection (or at least diversifying it) would go a long way to getting away from the cookie-cutter syndrome (another problem with clerics). Maybe borrow a few spells from the druid list for nature clerics, or the paladin list for war clerics. Not all clerics should (or would) be able to turn/rebuke undead. Give them unique powers dependent on their gods' portfolio(s), akin to the domain powers, and then drop the domain powers. I was thinking of divvying them up into four broad groups - combat, support, healer, and utility. Each group would have its own weapon/armor profs, abilities, and spell list. Domains would then fall into each group, and you'd get additional skills (over and above the base list) based on the domains you get. Your god determines your role and the domains. [/QUOTE]

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