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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 6084912" data-attributes="member: 7635">Yes, as editions move on, rules on how deities and priests interacted changed. Correct. Examples included Good (philosophy), Evil (philosophy), Divinity of Mankind (Philosophy), Elemental Forces (Force) and Life-Death-Rebirth (Force). Death (Force) got done somewhere (Dragon?) as well. Druid was also given as a "Force". It worked well for generic D&D (though the less said about the actual priest classes, the better). That's iffy. The 2e Mystara box-set (Kingdoms of Karameikos) goes out of its way to spell out that deities =/= immortals. Savage Coast does likewise. Mystara is barely mentioned in Planescape (a few fleeting references) until Warriors of Heaven, which does a straight immortal to deity conversion for the first time. (and ignores the cannon immigrants like Thor and Orcus). I tend to side with the 15+ years of Mystara cannon from the basic line over one chart in the end of 2e on this one. True. Templars are the closest to "real" clerics in DS, since they do communicate with a sentient force (the Dragon Kings) for power. Elemental Clerics and Druids do not, but draw off the land. Very true. It should also be noted Eberron Deities are remote, which allows clerics to widely differ from their deities ethos and still maintain spellcasting ability. (There are numerous examples of Evil clerics of the Silver Flame retaining their magic). Aside of knowing its origin in SAGA, I wasn't too keen on how 5th Age handled Mysticism. I must admit I much prefer the Sorcerer/Mystic as caster system in the 3.5 book. Still, it represents a priest gaining power without deities. I was more referring to the domain's homemade religions; The Morninglord, Ezra or Zhakata (the latter straight up is told to be the Dark Powers granting them spells). The Morninglord is belief in a heroic figure (Jandar Sunstar) mixed with Lathandarian beliefs and only found in Barovia, Ezra is spread out among the Core but Domains of Dread straight up says Anchorites (her priests) lose their power outside the Mists. Like much of Ravenloft, the whole belief/divine patron thing seems blurred. True, but Monster Mythology just said some of them were now 100% Gods, whereas Planescape straddled the line between spell-granting divine power and high-level killable monster (ironically). Some demon lords retained their divinity (Lolth) while others didn't (Demogorgon). It was mentioned in the PHB as a DM option rule (If the DM wants...) Though that rule isn't applied universally. Forgotten Realm's deities seem to have no problem granting any spell to any priest, while I'm SURE Greyhawk (in Player's Guide) spells that one out with great care. Agreed, but it doesn't solve the issue at stake here, which was clerics "needing" a deity to gain power. Though it does seem weird to think a cleric of a demigod is more screwed than a cleric worshipping the Divinity of Mankind when it comes to high-level spells. On Hallowed Ground. It was their way of getting around the stupid spell-loss by plane idea. Still, the moral of this story is that Clerics and Gods haven't gone together like Peas and Carrots in D&D. Some D&D worlds have required less than a divine source to gain powers, and I'd hate to lose that option by binding the cleric to a deity. (I also dislike All-Paladins-as-deity-worshippers as well, since I like the idea of secular paladins honoring the paladin's code for power).</blockquote>

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