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<blockquote data-quote="Al'Kelhar" data-source="post: 1708658" data-attributes="member: 7884">I agree with your argument, which simply boils down to &quot;because D&amp;D is not specific about real world effects of its spells, how can one conclude that a particular spell will have a particular effect&quot;.&nbsp; This misses the point of my argument, which is that any world in which magic is as all-pervasive as it purports to be in D&amp;D is exceedingly unlikely to look anything like some pseudo-medieval traditional fantasy world.Of course, the most dangerous thing our ancestors faced was the humble disease-causing antigen.&nbsp; It is naturally impossible to compare the demographic effects of smallpox or influenza to raiding goblins and assorted evil creatures extant in the &quot;D&amp;D world&quot;.&nbsp; What is most important to realise is that the very existence of creatures at least as intelligent as humans and with access to magic would have dramatic and far-reaching effects on the structure of human society - if such a society could even exist.&quot;Dude&quot;, thanks for the history lesson.&nbsp; It's always fun to extemporise from historical accidents - &quot;turning points in history&quot;, so called - but then responding to the effect of &quot;well that's bollocks because it's overly simplistic and makes unfounded assumptions&quot; isn't very polite.&nbsp; To say that &quot;we're lucky to be here; the chances of life emerging on this planet and evolving to a degree where it is capable of realising how infintesimally small the chances of its very existence really are, are infintesimally small,&quot; is not particularly insightful.&nbsp; To reiterate the central tenet of my argument, if magic is as prevalent in human society as the D&amp;D literature suggests, the validity of that society remaining in some romanticised quasi-medieval state of development for any appreciable length of time needs to be seriously questioned.&nbsp; The &quot;magic as technology&quot; example is simply one example of what might occur, and what might occur in a very short time frame.&nbsp; The complication of the existence other intelligent life simply adds to one's reservations about the sustainability of the D&amp;D &quot;model&quot;.Let me be clear on this.&nbsp; I play D&amp;D because it's escapism.&nbsp; It's fantasy.&nbsp; I've attempted to rationalise some of the more significant consequences of abundant magic by running low-magic campaigns.&nbsp; Kamikaze Midget's view of the Average D&amp;D Commoner and the classes and levels of the people around them is surprisingly similar to my own.&nbsp; But I don't try to analyse the society on a deep level because you very soon start asking &quot;why does it look like this and not something completely different?&quot;.Cheers, Al'Kelhar</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Al'Kelhar, post: 1708658, member: 7884"] I agree with your argument, which simply boils down to "because D&D is not specific about real world effects of its spells, how can one conclude that a particular spell will have a particular effect". This misses the point of my argument, which is that any world in which magic is as all-pervasive as it purports to be in D&D is exceedingly unlikely to look anything like some pseudo-medieval traditional fantasy world. Of course, the most dangerous thing our ancestors faced was the humble disease-causing antigen. It is naturally impossible to compare the demographic effects of smallpox or influenza to raiding goblins and assorted evil creatures extant in the "D&D world". What is most important to realise is that the very existence of creatures at least as intelligent as humans and with access to magic would have dramatic and far-reaching effects on the structure of human society - if such a society could even exist. "Dude", thanks for the history lesson. It's always fun to extemporise from historical accidents - "turning points in history", so called - but then responding to the effect of "well that's bollocks because it's overly simplistic and makes unfounded assumptions" isn't very polite. To say that "we're lucky to be here; the chances of life emerging on this planet and evolving to a degree where it is capable of realising how infintesimally small the chances of its very existence really are, are infintesimally small," is not particularly insightful. To reiterate the central tenet of my argument, if magic is as prevalent in human society as the D&D literature suggests, the validity of that society remaining in some romanticised quasi-medieval state of development for any appreciable length of time needs to be seriously questioned. The "magic as technology" example is simply one example of what might occur, and what might occur in a very short time frame. The complication of the existence other intelligent life simply adds to one's reservations about the sustainability of the D&D "model". Let me be clear on this. I play D&D because it's escapism. It's fantasy. I've attempted to rationalise some of the more significant consequences of abundant magic by running low-magic campaigns. Kamikaze Midget's view of the Average D&D Commoner and the classes and levels of the people around them is surprisingly similar to my own. But I don't try to analyse the society on a deep level because you very soon start asking "why does it look like this and not something completely different?". Cheers, Al'Kelhar [/QUOTE]

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