The Common Factor between D&D, Mythology, Fiction, and Life: Horrible Death is Fun

[imurphy943]

D&D = Characters having Adventures.
Character = (fictional) Living Being. Life = Eventual Death.
Adventures = Excitement. Excitement = Risky. Risk = Eventual Loss.
Fun of Adventure = (Excitement)*1
Time remaining before Loss = (Remaining Lifespan)/(Risks Taken)

Therefore, if D&D = Fun, then Fun = Having Some Adventures, Then Losing Everything And Dying.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this.

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

Unless the characters survive long enough to become immortal/demigods/deities, and then they don't have to worry about dying.

 

[imurphy943]

I guess one thing that's been proved is that being God isn't all it's made out to be.

 

[Umbran]

Character = (fictional) Living Being. Life = Eventual Death.

There are assumptions in there.

There are characters that are not, technically "living" (Data, from Star Trek as an example).

There are characters who are living, and who may die, but for whom death is not guaranteed (say, most any Barsoomian from Edgar Rice Burroughs' fiction, who have lifespans in excess of 1000 years, and might not have death by old age at all).

There are characters who are not really living beings in the usual sense, and who are pretty much immortal (say, the Endless, from Niel Gaiman's Sandman comics, or most gods of mythology).

Those are just a few examples for demonstration, and I'm not trying to be exhaustive by any means.

 

[Loonook]

There are assumptions in there.

There are characters that are not, technically "living" (Data, from Star Trek as an example).

There are characters who are living, and who may die, but for whom death is not guaranteed (say, most any Barsoomian from Edgar Rice Burroughs' fiction, who have lifespans in excess of 1000 years, and might not have death by old age at all).

There are characters who are not really living beings in the usual sense, and who are pretty much immortal (say, the Endless, from Niel Gaiman's Sandman comics, or most gods of mythology).

Those are just a few examples for demonstration, and I'm not trying to be exhaustive by any means.

Data does die blowing up the Scimitar...

The Martians both Red and Green DO suffer death around 1000 years into their lives, and the Dissolution is quick to age and finally kill the poor creature.

Even the Endless can die... At least one notable example of this exists within the series (of course the Mantle of the Endless is taken on by another)... And when it all wraps up Death will reap the Ur, sit up the chairs, and turn out the lights...

There's no truly immortal beings in most mythologies. Even in most societies where their mythos that has immortal beings there is a Creation wherein lies a realization from the chaos and then a return to the chaotic.

Most mythology leaves the chance of death and the danger thereof. From the Norse and Gotterdammerung to the tales of the gods in the Mahabharata there are PLENTY of gods dying. And there's not really a place where the truly Big Guys don't die.

Of course, even in strange aeons, even Death will die...

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Janx]

D&D = Characters having Adventures.
Character = (fictional) Living Being. Life = Eventual Death.
Adventures = Excitement. Excitement = Risky. Risk = Eventual Loss.
Fun of Adventure = (Excitement)*1
Time remaining before Loss = (Remaining Lifespan)/(Risks Taken)

Therefore, if D&D = Fun, then Fun = Having Some Adventures, Then Losing Everything And Dying.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this.

I find other things to disagree with your proposal than what Umbran picks out about Life.

The final conclusion doesn't apply to me. I've not had PCs die and lose everything. I've had PCs die and come back. PCs lose everything and then get it back. I've had PCs retire and if they died, it was beyond the scope of game play and therefore not part of player consideration (ex. 500 years go by in the campaign world so we can start the next campaign).

Let's get to your variables, on which your conclusion relies:
Character = (fictional) Living Being.
--How about decision making agent that changes over time
Life = Eventual Death.
--Umbran quibbled this one. I don't think Living Being has to be part of the equation anyway
Adventures = Excitement.
--sure.
Excitement = Risky.
--probably true. But risk takes many forms, not just risk of life.
Risk = Eventual Loss.
--According to probability, not actually true. You can keep flipping a coing and it CAN keep turning up heads. Not a very high probability of that, but risk does not mean eventual loss, only potential loss.
Fun of Adventure = (Excitement)*1
--sure.
Time remaining before Loss = (Remaining Lifespan)/(Risks Taken)
--this is part of the falacy of risk. Loss isn't eventual, risk doesn't always mean loss of life. Loss doesn't even always mean end of game.

I'm not sure what your end goal is with this logic exercise. It looks like you're trying to drive a conclusion that D&D is about risking your life and eventually dying, and that's the defining component of its appeal.

That doesn't hold true for me, and I suspect it's not true for enough people that this doesn't even qualify as a decent generalization for which I'm merely an exception.

I have fun problem solving in D&D
I have fun socializing in D&D
I have fun portraying a character in D&D
I have fun building things (businesses, nations, organizations) in D&D
I have fun killing things in D&D
I have fun helping NPCs in D&D
I have fun being rewarded for my good deeds in D&D
I have fun outwitting the GM in D&D
I have fun escaping certain death in D&D

 

[imurphy943]

You can keep flipping a coin and it CAN keep turning up heads. Not a very high probability of that, but risk does not mean eventual loss, only potential loss.

It is true that a coin can continue flipping heads infinitely, but a game in which I succeeded at everything would quickly grow boring. It is also true that a character can survive to retire, but this amounts to the same thing for my purposes- an end. Without an end, not even the most enjoyable activity can stay fun.

[MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION]
true, there are immortal characters, but I would not have fun playing a character which truly had no chance of loss, and D&D has never supported such characters anyway (Wrath of the Immortals introduced 'immortal' characters, but they could still die).

 

[Umbran]

Data does die blowing up the Scimitar...

The point was that he wasn't "living". He can be destroyed, sure.

The Martians both Red and Green DO suffer death around 1000 years into their lives, and the Dissolution is quick to age and finally kill the poor creature.

That's not how it is portrayed in "Gods of Mars" (the second John Carter of Mars book). By tradition, at age 1000, the red and green martians go up the River Iss, expecting to end a life of hatred and strife in a heaven of peace and love. John Carter finds out that isn't true, as he winds up at the top of the Iss, and finds that the whole thing is a sham perpetrated by the Therns (who then also have the same sham perpetrated on them by the Black Martians). I know of no examples of death by old age upon Barsoom. They do get old, eventually - Issus herself is depicted as an aged crone, but she's old enough that she's had a mythology built around her the origins of which the other races (who, by tradition, go on for 1000 years) do not recall.

My point is merely that "living" and "eventual death" are not necessarily required. Common? Surely. Required? No. That's all.

 

[Loonook]

The point was that he wasn't "living". He can be destroyed, sure.

That's not how it is portrayed in "Gods of Mars" (the second John Carter of Mars book). By tradition, at age 1000, the red and green martians go up the River Iss, expecting to end a life of hatred and strife in a heaven of peace and love. John Carter finds out that isn't true, as he winds up at the top of the Iss, and finds that the whole thing is a sham perpetrated by the Therns (who then also have the same sham perpetrated on them by the Black Martians). I know of no examples of death by old age upon Barsoom. They do get old, eventually - Issus herself is depicted as an aged crone, but she's old enough that she's had a mythology built around her the origins of which the other races (who, by tradition, go on for 1000 years) do not recall.

My point is merely that "living" and "eventual death" are not necessarily required. Common? Surely. Required? No. That's all.

I found the information on Red Martian lifespans from a quote by Carter cited here from Llana of Gathol and John Carter of Mars... Now, of course this is a compilation of original stories from Burroughs in his later career, but it still has the information in it.

Also, if we want to split hairs on life then Outsiders, Living Constructs, and sapient Deathless/Undead do not 'die' (or, at least in the last case, die again)... They just fade away like old soldiers.

As I said, even death may die. Death is part of the lives of anyone who adventures.

Perhaps it is because I sit not on the 'safe' end of fantasy, but rather the more deadly side that I don't mind death. But stating that death isn't a part of the lives of each of the creatures listed seems like a fallacy. The possibility to be destroyed gives life its savor, and I cannot recall any truly 'immortal' beings in fantasy. No one beats Entropy, and to be Reborn you must die.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Darkness]

Therefore, if D&D = Fun, then Fun = Having Some Adventures, Then Losing Everything And Dying.

Kinda sounds like Dwarf Fortress.