the concept of time (dungeoncrawling)

The reason why players choose to rest too often is obvious. If the way the game is set up 4 encounters are assumed to drain the PCs' resources, then logically the 1st encounter the PCs will be at full strength and the encounter will be easy, the second they'll be at 3/4 strength and the encounter will be moderate, the 3rd they'll be at 1/2 strength and the encounter will be hard, and the 4th they'll be at 1/4 strength and the encounter will be very hard with a real possibility of defeat. Players who choose to rest after 2 encounters aren't doing so because those first 2 were too hard, they're doing so because they're trying to game the system -- they don't ever want to face hard encounters where they've got 1/2 or 1/4 of their resources, they want everything to be easy encounters where they're at full or 3/4 strength. And, barring other considerations, that's a perfectly reasonable and tactically sound approach, so the DM has to react by doing one of two things: 1) make sure there are other considerations that make frequent resting a less attractive option (the kinds of stuff mentioned in this thread -- wandering monster checks, the bad guys becoming more organized (i.e. the challenges becoming tougher) while the party's away, etc.), or 2) accept the fact that the party is going to rest after every encounter and bump encounter difficulty accordingly, so that instead of every encounter being designed to use up 1/4 of the party's resources it's indtead designed to use up all of them, or at least 3/4. The players are trying to game the system to their advantage, so it's perfectly appropriate for the DM to game it right back at them (assuming, that is, that the DM wants the adventure to have some element of difficulty for the players, some realistic risk of failure, and that success should be determined by player skill (and/or luck) and not a foregone conclusion due to statistical inevitability -- if not, if you don't care if the deck is stacked in the PCs' favor, then why make them rest at all? -- just declare by fiat that all character resources (spells, hp, etc.) are fully restored after each encounter, so the party will always be at full strength -- the end result will be the same but you won't have slowed the game down with boring minutiae).

Oh, and FWIW my suggestion that the DM forbid players from returning to the dungeon and/or threaten to quit was at least partially tongue-in-cheek (hence the winking smiley). In reality, I concur with Hussar's advice -- if you know that your players are going to be likely to leave/rest mid-session and then want to continue, you should plan ahead and pre-determine how the dungeon is likely to change based on PC activity -- "if a group attacks, leaves, and returns with 7 days they'll find increased patrols (double wandering monster checks), guards are more wary (1/2 normal surprise chance), and 1/3 of the reserve squads from areas 8-13 will be moved up to reinforce areas 2-7; if possible barricades will be set up in area 4 and/or ambushes set in areas 5 and 6" or something like that; it doesn't really take much time/effort and you'll have a short break while the PCs are resting (choosing their new spells, calculating how many hp they got back, etc.) to adjust and expand these notes based on the actual, rather than theoretical, way things played out.

Oh, and one last thing, in the original game (and 1E AD&D) combat rounds were a minute each (and the total time of each combat was rounded up to the next 10 minutes) and parties were also forced to rest 10 minutes out of every hour while exploring dungeons. Add to that the (not universal but widespread) phenomenon of combat in those systems taking less time to play out than the current one, and you've got a much closer correlation of real-time to game-time -- instead of 4 combats taking 3 hours to play out and 3 minutes of game-time, it'll be more like 2 hours to play out and an hour of game-time.
 

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T. Foster said:
A "living" dungeon (which is to say a dungeon with living/intelligent inhabitants, as opposed to something completely passive/static like the Tomb of Horrors) should always react to the PCs' activity.
In my experience, this is the biggest difference between playing D&D as a kid and playing it as an adult.
 

Castellan said:
I've found that this behavior in players is born out of the fear of getting into a fight with anything less than full spells/hitpoints/whatever.

Occasionally, of course, that fear is justified! :)

First session of a new campaign yesterday. The four of us took on six duergar, and with the help of some good rolls, won handily. The Bear Totem Barbarian was on 11/17 hit points - "Not a problem, I'm good to go."

We encountered three more duergar, and the first blow of the encounter dealt 12 damage to the Barbarian. Coupled with about four rounds where none of the PCs could roll above 5 on a d20, having our tank out of action in round 1 just about did us in.

Sometimes getting into a fight with less than full hit points will get you killed... and it only has to happen once to make you wary of it in future!

-Hyp.
 

Delta said:
Yeah, I grapple a lot with that. People always complained about AD&D's 1-minute combat rounds.

It seems to make sense that you can swing a sword in 6 seconds. But, it somehow doesn't make sense that you can regularly kill several men in 30 seconds.

Which is why I use "cinematic time" for combats.

Basically this means that offically a round is 6-seconds in length, when describing it to the players it can be as short as a single second (mages exchanging a rapid barrage of spells), to over a minute in length (party members moving through a crowded bar fight, drawing AoO and ducking and weaving all through the melee).

It doesn't have any affect game time (a spell that lasts 1 minute will still last 10 rounds, even if I describe the action as taking a minute for them to get into position), but it is one of those situations where DM's judgement is called for. Whatever is more dramatic and necessary for the scene.

ie: two ways to describe a single round of combat between characters.

"It in blur of blades the two fighters lunge at each other, the strikes nothing but after-images before your eyes. Within a single heartbeat they've exchanged a fury of blows then each jumps back, breathing heavily and bleeding from a number of small wounds the other inflicted."

"The two fighters crash together, their weapons striking hard against the other. For long seconds they trade blows, the air ringing with the clash of metal upon metal. Over a period of blows they trade off on who had the advantage, each getting winded as the exchange continues. Finally each takes a step back, their limbs heavy and their breating laboured."

So if the time offends you, change it. Leave the mechanics alone but alter the telling of the tale.
 

@ Loincloth of Armour
Oh definetly. Trying to fudge the time it takes to do things is something I do myself. Even for non-combat stuff. I try to fill in the time as much as possible. But still that either sometimes does not cut it: even with trying to fill out the time as much as possible, the party still will fly through 4 equal EL encounters in.. an hour or two instead of 15 minutes. But there is still 10 hours of daylight left in the day and they just woke up 2 hours ago. Or you get to a point where its just too much: trying to describe a combat that takes a half hour but still lets the characters use spells that only should have lasted a couple rounds can get a little far fetched.


@ T. Foster and Hussar
Both of your messages about dungeon ecology is right on and I agree 100%. If a party does 'kick in the door' of a dungeon and ends up retreating with some/most of the dungeon inhabitants still intact (assuming they are intellegent and working together) then the dungeon should be moved around and formed to reflect this when the characters come storming back in.
However the problem is, when you re-work the enemies in logical sense... setting up new ambush sites, more patrols/wandering monsters, reinforcements to fill in the ranks. In the end, doing that completely undermines the whole situation. The characters backed out of the dungeon because they were out of resources (spells, HP, ammo, etc.) to regroup and recharge. By reinforcing the dungeon denizens and doubling the wandering monster chance, the characters are going to get less far in the dungeon then they did the first time, since they will meet a stiffer resistance and thus more EL appropriate encounters faster and potentially result in a loop of wake up-four encounters after 20 minutes-rest.
Which isn't to say it is a bad thing outright. Actually in all reality, its a good thing if the characters and players can realize it. If they know that when they pull back out of the dungeon to rest, it will get reinforced and the enemy will be even stronger, it gives them more incentive to "push on" in the initial assualt to keep the momentum and general level of suprise. But still the fact remains that a party with a wizard down to his last read magic spell, cleric with a single create water and fighter with 3 hp left cannot press on. A party is like a steam locomotive train and when the fire runs out, the train stops moving and piling on more encounters/replacing the encounters already over come is like adding more steep hills to the train tracks.
 

I don't really have much to add, as others have pointed out the major reasons already. But one more thing, more for emphasis really, is the A Room Too Far syndrom. I don't know how many times I've see, or heard about, a party that was down to about a half to a third and decided to do "Just one more room". I think you all know what happened next. After that happens a few times you tend to get gunshy. Sure, you should be able to deal with what's there, but why risk it? After all, if you've been fighting for most of the four hours you've been at the gaming table it's kinda hard to reconcile that only an hour or so, if that, has gone by in game time.
 


Which isn't to say it is a bad thing outright. Actually in all reality, its a good thing if the characters and players can realize it. If they know that when they pull back out of the dungeon to rest, it will get reinforced and the enemy will be even stronger, it gives them more incentive to "push on" in the initial assualt to keep the momentum and general level of suprise. But still the fact remains that a party with a wizard down to his last read magic spell, cleric with a single create water and fighter with 3 hp left cannot press on. A party is like a steam locomotive train and when the fire runs out, the train stops moving and piling on more encounters/replacing the encounters already over come is like adding more steep hills to the train tracks.

And that's a good point. PC's will have to rest. If they are pretty depleted before they need to rest, then I don't think anyone would complain. It's a pretty mean DM who would say, "Hey, Bob, you've still got 3 hp left! Rest?!?! Ya bunch of slackers!"

My point is more about rewarding the behavior you want to see. If the PC's realize that going in, splatting two encounters and then retreat means that the rest of the adventure is going to get much tougher, then they are more likely to push on a bit. If they do push on, then the dungeon is too disorganized to effectively get their act together and the PC's get their rest.

Everyone's happy.
 

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