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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9147917" data-attributes="member: 6877472">To use White Wolf as an example, while the Storyteller system games such as Vampire: the Masquerade were huge in the 90's, as someone who played those games extensively and loved them- they were terrible.&nbsp; Rules that were utter garbage, Discipline powers that were badly parsed or would say things like &quot;if you make this roll at this difficulty and get this many successes you can do this ill-defined thing&quot;, Clans that were just flat out better than others (I'm looking at you, Tremere- even in-universe they were compared to D&amp;D Wizards!), a combat system that broke in half the instant someone got access to Celerity- the game design on display here is quite shoddy, lol.To the point that they decided to go to Steve Jackson with their setting asking for better rules...and SJG was like &quot;what even is this mess?&quot;.But the game was undeniably popular.Just because something is beloved and popular doesn't mean it lacks flaws or weaknesses, sometimes damning ones- but if someone likes it enough, they will forgive those flaws, even embrace them.&nbsp; You see this in fandoms all the time.&nbsp; Nobody is going to ever argue that the special effects of, say, Doctor Who during Tom Baker's run were even acceptable- often the scripts devolved into moments of pure camp.&nbsp; But there are many fans of those episodes around the world to this day (I'm one of them), who forgive these flaws and focused on the strengths.So can we put this &quot;5e is popular so it can't possibly be flawed&quot; argument to rest?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9147917, member: 6877472"] To use White Wolf as an example, while the Storyteller system games such as Vampire: the Masquerade were huge in the 90's, as someone who played those games extensively and loved them- they were terrible. Rules that were utter garbage, Discipline powers that were badly parsed or would say things like "if you make this roll at this difficulty and get this many successes you can do this ill-defined thing", Clans that were just flat out better than others (I'm looking at you, Tremere- even in-universe they were compared to D&D Wizards!), a combat system that broke in half the instant someone got access to Celerity- the game design on display here is quite shoddy, lol. To the point that they decided to go to Steve Jackson with their setting asking for better rules...and SJG was like "what even is this mess?". But the game was undeniably popular. Just because something is beloved and popular doesn't mean it lacks flaws or weaknesses, sometimes damning ones- but if someone likes it enough, they will forgive those flaws, even embrace them. You see this in fandoms all the time. Nobody is going to ever argue that the special effects of, say, Doctor Who during Tom Baker's run were even acceptable- often the scripts devolved into moments of pure camp. But there are many fans of those episodes around the world to this day (I'm one of them), who forgive these flaws and focused on the strengths. So can we put this "5e is popular so it can't possibly be flawed" argument to rest? [/QUOTE]

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