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<blockquote data-quote="Bone Mote" data-source="post: 5816668" data-attributes="member: 6689386">Meh.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've played only the LG, LFR, and PFS Organized Play campaigns.&nbsp; Anything before that is out of my reality.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I don't begrudge the right of publishers the right to make money off&nbsp;&nbsp; their organized play systems but I think there is an inherent problem&nbsp;&nbsp; with publisher themselves running Organized Play campaigns...they just&nbsp;&nbsp; can't help themselves from ruining them.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Let's start with LFR, built on 4e.&nbsp;&nbsp; Yeah, some people love 4e, some&nbsp;&nbsp; people hated 4e, and, imho, 4e could have managed a decent and long&nbsp;&nbsp; lasting Organized Play campaign.&nbsp; Sadly, it failed...not because 4e was a&nbsp;&nbsp; system that needed adjusting to work for an Organized Play&nbsp; environment,&nbsp; but because the LFR 'leadership' team refused to take the&nbsp; necessary&nbsp; steps to restrict access and parts of the 4e game from the&nbsp; LFR campaign.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Wut?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Yeah.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; When 4e started, it was amazing.&nbsp; Our local gaming group had 10 tables&nbsp;&nbsp; running...it was just the Player's Handbook and everything was great.&nbsp; &nbsp; People came in and played their butts off...we had the core races and&nbsp;&nbsp; everything was mostly good.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However, over time, WotC started releasing crappy, unplaytested,&nbsp;&nbsp; unerrata'd book after crappy, unplaytested, unerrata'd Dragon&nbsp; magazine&nbsp; article.&nbsp; It started to crapify mightily.&nbsp; When errata did get released,&nbsp; full character&nbsp; builds were being torn apart by errata.&nbsp; Characters&nbsp; died to decision&nbsp; paralysis (by their players) under the weight of new&nbsp; content.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The LFR judge pool was the first to go.&nbsp; No GM delights in knowing but&nbsp;&nbsp; 1% of&nbsp; the game's rules/feats/powers/options.&nbsp; There were just too&nbsp; many things to know.&nbsp; And no&nbsp; judge wants to run the same mod for the&nbsp; same replayer again and again.&nbsp;&nbsp; No judge likes being farmed.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And WotC (or the feckless admins who promoted the crap) demanded that&nbsp;&nbsp; LFR use skill challenges in every mod...despite feedback about how&nbsp; silly&nbsp; they were and how much they killed roleplaying and were a factor&nbsp; in&nbsp; driving players away.&nbsp; But WotC needed to sell product...so skill&nbsp; challenges stayed.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And because WotC wanted to sell their crap, they instituted stupid&nbsp; rules&nbsp; like unlimited retraining (which breaks a core principle of&nbsp; getting&nbsp; players to actually care about their characters) and ridiculous&nbsp; race&nbsp; options (bugbears? gnolls?...in a 'heroic' campaign) and ever&nbsp; expanding ridiculous content&nbsp; (insert your pet peeve here) just so they&nbsp; could sell the crap.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The crapification eventually led to a lot of people leaving LFR...sure&nbsp;&nbsp; there were other reasons too...but as content built up and judges and&nbsp;&nbsp; players (except for the true believers, the hardcore) could no longer&nbsp;&nbsp; assimilate and enjoy the game without realizing how little they&nbsp;&nbsp; knew/understood, the game started to collapse.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;The same feckless LFR admins instituted rules to allow players to create&nbsp;&nbsp; higher level characters so that players would have more reason to buy&nbsp;&nbsp; their crap.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sadly, this hits against a core principle of OP: that&nbsp;&nbsp; characters need to earn their levels.&nbsp; More players left.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; But I'm sure WotC saw their product sell...*sigh*&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Now, we can look at the Pathfinder Society...and we see the same pattern emerging.&nbsp; The crapification has begun.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Back in the good ol' days, it was simple: you had the core rulebook,&nbsp; the&nbsp; APG, and Seeker of Secrets...and life was good.&nbsp; You hated the&nbsp;&nbsp; Summoner, but you could deal with it...maybe.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Then Ultimate Magic was released...and the Magus and Synth Summoner&nbsp; came and shat upon the PFS game.&nbsp; (In particular, the Synth leads to&nbsp; more stupid and broken builds than anything.)&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; You:&nbsp; Wut?&nbsp; Why is this an issue?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Me: Well, in PFS, all content is almost immediately available to&nbsp;&nbsp; players...even though much of the content is overpowered for an&nbsp;&nbsp; Organized Play environment.&nbsp;&nbsp; In a home game, it's easy for a GM to say&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Hells no, no Master Summoners in my game.&quot;&nbsp; In PFS, there are no such&nbsp;&nbsp; restrictions.&nbsp; Everything sees play.&nbsp;&nbsp; And this breeds the worst sort&nbsp; of&nbsp; min/maxing, munchkin, scenario destroying (PFS GMs are not allowed&nbsp; to&nbsp; change scenarios), attention hogging players in the game.&nbsp; They can&nbsp; do *anything* because it's legal.&nbsp; ANYTHING.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Then Ultimate Combat came out...with a plethora of more crappy, untested, unerrata'd content.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And let's not forget the other content that has been added over the&nbsp; last&nbsp; year:&nbsp; ALMOST EVERY CONTENT BOOK THAT PAIZO has published.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Yep.&nbsp; Crapified.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; All this untested, unmitigated crap is going to kill the PFS campaign&nbsp; too.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sadly,&nbsp; Paizo feels that they need to sell product at any&nbsp; cost....even at the&nbsp; cost of slowly dragging their campaign to the&nbsp; depths.&nbsp; Oh...and the power creep!&nbsp; Let's not forget about that.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; An Organized Play campaign lives and dies on the back of their&nbsp;&nbsp; judges...and if judges can't/won't judge because they just can't learn&nbsp;&nbsp; about all the content out there AND can't adjust scenarios to match&nbsp;&nbsp; their players...then they are going to flee.&nbsp; And the more casual&nbsp;&nbsp; players are going to flee when they realize that they don't know or&nbsp;&nbsp; understand all the crap that is out there.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; No PFS GM delights in not knowing 1% of the available&nbsp;&nbsp; options/feats/classes, etc., AND can't adjust the scenario to challenge&nbsp;&nbsp; their players.&nbsp; And so Paizo treads down the path of LFR before it....&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; So, tell me, people....what do you think?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Can an Organized Play system run by the company last?&nbsp; Or are we&nbsp;&nbsp; doomed to failed campaigns because companies can't help themselves?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -BoneMote</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bone Mote, post: 5816668, member: 6689386"] Meh. I've played only the LG, LFR, and PFS Organized Play campaigns. Anything before that is out of my reality. I don't begrudge the right of publishers the right to make money off their organized play systems but I think there is an inherent problem with publisher themselves running Organized Play campaigns...they just can't help themselves from ruining them. Let's start with LFR, built on 4e. Yeah, some people love 4e, some people hated 4e, and, imho, 4e could have managed a decent and long lasting Organized Play campaign. Sadly, it failed...not because 4e was a system that needed adjusting to work for an Organized Play environment, but because the LFR 'leadership' team refused to take the necessary steps to restrict access and parts of the 4e game from the LFR campaign. Wut? Yeah. When 4e started, it was amazing. Our local gaming group had 10 tables running...it was just the Player's Handbook and everything was great. People came in and played their butts off...we had the core races and everything was mostly good. However, over time, WotC started releasing crappy, unplaytested, unerrata'd book after crappy, unplaytested, unerrata'd Dragon magazine article. It started to crapify mightily. When errata did get released, full character builds were being torn apart by errata. Characters died to decision paralysis (by their players) under the weight of new content. The LFR judge pool was the first to go. No GM delights in knowing but 1% of the game's rules/feats/powers/options. There were just too many things to know. And no judge wants to run the same mod for the same replayer again and again. No judge likes being farmed. And WotC (or the feckless admins who promoted the crap) demanded that LFR use skill challenges in every mod...despite feedback about how silly they were and how much they killed roleplaying and were a factor in driving players away. But WotC needed to sell product...so skill challenges stayed. And because WotC wanted to sell their crap, they instituted stupid rules like unlimited retraining (which breaks a core principle of getting players to actually care about their characters) and ridiculous race options (bugbears? gnolls?...in a 'heroic' campaign) and ever expanding ridiculous content (insert your pet peeve here) just so they could sell the crap. The crapification eventually led to a lot of people leaving LFR...sure there were other reasons too...but as content built up and judges and players (except for the true believers, the hardcore) could no longer assimilate and enjoy the game without realizing how little they knew/understood, the game started to collapse. The same feckless LFR admins instituted rules to allow players to create higher level characters so that players would have more reason to buy their crap. Sadly, this hits against a core principle of OP: that characters need to earn their levels. More players left. But I'm sure WotC saw their product sell...*sigh* Now, we can look at the Pathfinder Society...and we see the same pattern emerging. The crapification has begun. Back in the good ol' days, it was simple: you had the core rulebook, the APG, and Seeker of Secrets...and life was good. You hated the Summoner, but you could deal with it...maybe. Then Ultimate Magic was released...and the Magus and Synth Summoner came and shat upon the PFS game. (In particular, the Synth leads to more stupid and broken builds than anything.) You: Wut? Why is this an issue? Me: Well, in PFS, all content is almost immediately available to players...even though much of the content is overpowered for an Organized Play environment. In a home game, it's easy for a GM to say "Hells no, no Master Summoners in my game." In PFS, there are no such restrictions. Everything sees play. And this breeds the worst sort of min/maxing, munchkin, scenario destroying (PFS GMs are not allowed to change scenarios), attention hogging players in the game. They can do *anything* because it's legal. ANYTHING. Then Ultimate Combat came out...with a plethora of more crappy, untested, unerrata'd content. And let's not forget the other content that has been added over the last year: ALMOST EVERY CONTENT BOOK THAT PAIZO has published. Yep. Crapified. All this untested, unmitigated crap is going to kill the PFS campaign too. Sadly, Paizo feels that they need to sell product at any cost....even at the cost of slowly dragging their campaign to the depths. Oh...and the power creep! Let's not forget about that. An Organized Play campaign lives and dies on the back of their judges...and if judges can't/won't judge because they just can't learn about all the content out there AND can't adjust scenarios to match their players...then they are going to flee. And the more casual players are going to flee when they realize that they don't know or understand all the crap that is out there. No PFS GM delights in not knowing 1% of the available options/feats/classes, etc., AND can't adjust the scenario to challenge their players. And so Paizo treads down the path of LFR before it.... So, tell me, people....what do you think? Can an Organized Play system run by the company last? Or are we doomed to failed campaigns because companies can't help themselves? -BoneMote [/QUOTE]

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