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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 1340686" data-attributes="member: 177">In an attempt to keep the hijack localized, I'll reply to two people at once here.You might want to go check a dictionary.  Objectivity is what you get when you remove the opinions and feelings of people from your measurements.  The speed of light in a vacuum is an objective thing.  The quality or value of literature is not.A great many people tend to claim that consensus equals objectivity.  This is simply untrue.  Consensus is mutually agreeable subjectivity.  We may occasionally attempt to use consensus as a way to get our measure closer to objectivity.  However, when those coming to the consensus are like-minded people with similar educations (if they are all literary academics and critics, for example) the attempt is of little value.Artworks are not tested against "reality".  They are tested against the human mind.  Then, by definition, the results of those tests are not objective.If Ulysses were actually objectively better than The Rats of NIMH, then I could give both books to any person on the planet (Any person, regardless of age or cultural background.  Heck, I could give them to a space alien!) and get the same answer about which is better.  I am quite sure that my 10 year old nephew would not agree with your assessment, which indicates that your assessment is based upon what you value, rather than upon some universal truth with which my nephew cannot disagree.Hm.  Questioning my mental faculties is effectively an attack upon my person, rather than upon my position.  Aside from being rude, it's a fairly weak rhetorical device.  But, since you asked the question...Yes.  "Personal appeal" is a reasonably well defined but subjective measure of value based upon the opinions of a specific individual.  "Quality" is a poorly defined measure.  In this context it probably refers to the collective opinions of academicians, critics, and/or the mass market, none of which are objective observers.Now, to return the favor - I can distinguish between objectivity and collective opinion.  Can you?Sophistication does not equate to quality, except in the minds of those who happen to personally value or prefer sophistication.  Thus, sophistication is a subjective measure.[quote = The Mirrorball Man]That's not entirely true. The overall scope and ambition of a novel is an objective way to gauge, not its quality, but its potential to be good.</blockquote>See the above discussion of the term "objectivity".  The scope and ambition of a work may be a vague measure of how likely it is to appeal to critics, or even to a large audience.  That doesn't make it an objective measure or universal truth.After all that nigh-scientific consideration, though, I think I can best sum up with a literary reference.  Shakespeare, in fact - "There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so."[/QUOTE]

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