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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tigris" data-source="post: 9565634" data-attributes="member: 7043270">I think it is much easier than this. He looked mostly at PHB1 sales for the different edition. And he states that "Riggs noted that the 4E PHB sold far less than the 3E PHBs". What happened here is just that 3E PHB1 and 3.5 PHB1 are counted together. This is exactly the point I saw elsewhere that 4E PHB sold more than 3E PHB and 3.5 PHB but less than both together. This easily explains all the points you brought up.I fully understand why you removed one user from the discussion (and I am glad this back and forth has stopped). However I dont 100% understand why the person who was instigating a huge unneeded discussion with tripple posts etc. and who states old flamebaits without any evidence (even after links disproving it are posted) and just goes "oh the 4 people who actually saw the numbers and posted might be lying" could not also be removed, since it feels like this could just go on again.Since I dont post this often: Does this mean its also ok to go into OSR discussions and claim that OSR is played almost only by alt rights, because this was written on blogpost I read? Or go into the D&D 2E discussions and say "How can you play a game with satanist influence?" Because thats also something I have read before. (And actually mirrors the D&D 4E is influenced by WoW being spread in this thread, since even though the lead designer said it was not, there might still be some other designer who read some satanic material (not because they believe but because designers read lots of different things!) which got them inspired for some material). Of course its also on us to just not engage with such things (and I wont anymore), but for me both these users made this thread a lot harder to read and find actual useful information. (Or people asking a honest question to answer like the Wyrdwood Wand.)So I dont question your decision. I just ask you to maybe also remove the other side to help this thread to not derail any further.Well this is easy:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There is now not anymore a full Pathfinder fangroup who hates on 4E as before. When Paizo first talked about 4E one designer stated "what I saw was so bad we had to make our own game" (in slightly different words). And the big Pathfinder community / paizo fans were annoyed with WOTC (because of stupid license which is fair), so there was a lot of negativity and repeated misinformation going on. (Like "Pathfinder outsold 4E4", "you need to half monster health and double damage in 4E", "4E is just like WoW" etc.).<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Now with Pathfinder 2 being to big parts built on 4E design, even paizo indirectly aknowledges that 4E does indeed have good gamedesign. Also there main "enemy" is now 5E.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This can be really seen. There might still be lots of negativity against 4E here, but it is now possible to sometimes have 4E posts in other places (like reddit rpg), where no one brings old wrong 4E memes up!</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More people who are used to modern gamedesign are in the Hobby. 15 years ago there were %wise more people who never played a modern boardgame or computer game in RPGs than nowadays. So these big changes in 4E were for them really strange. Now with more people coming from other nerd hobbies like magic the gathering, gaming and boardgames, people are used to modern gamedesign since thats used in these places as well.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The clear rules are taken from Magic the gathering and most boardgames mirror these kind of wordings.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Giving all classes the same class structure to make it easier to understand and compare different characters is absolutely normal in computer games. Its used in LoL, DotA2, Overwatch etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Similar having easy to read rules with high contrast and lot of whitespace like 4E books have is common in boardgames and card games (if possible), especially since it also helps visually impaired people to have an easier time reading it.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dungeons and Dragons 5e has shown over time many flaws (some smaller, some bigger), and D&D 4E is often used to improve on this flaws. There are many content creators and forum discussions on reddit etc. where 4E mechanics are used to improve 5E.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Several content creators who dismissed 4E initially, because they got caught in all the negativity surrounding it, gave it now an actual chance. Since many people who did not like 4E never really played it.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">EDIT: One thing I forgot: D&D 4E also did improve a lot over its duration. The most extreme case is the adventurers. The first ones were just not good at all. Later ones can be great. Additional a lot of things are added over time. Improved monsters, simple classes, more non combat powers/features (especially for martials) etc.</li> </ul>EDIT: Completly missed this:Wyrdwood Wand is one of the games with most 4E influence in it.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You have 3 different roles. Striker, defender and controller. (Not sure if Leader will also come)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">And mechanics to make these roles work. Like good opportunity attacks, many control options etc.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">These 3 roles have huge influence</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You have typical the at will and encounter abilities. And a bit more flexible daily abilities. (You have a daily ressource which can be used to empower certain spells, but the empowerment is huge so it really makes spells of power level of daily spells)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In general it uses some streamlining so spells have no level as an example. This also makes it easier to make lot of different classes etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It has the split between combat spells and rituals with a big focus on the rituals</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Your level 1 is pretty similar to level 1 in 4E in terms of power<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">High starting health (and not too much health gained per level compared to it)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Already having several spells and some daily ressources as well as role feature to make you able to fulfill your role.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It uses several 4E mechanics<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It uses healing surges to limit healing and also allow healing without a leader</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You add half your level to your proficiency</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It uses several different defenses like tenacity, evasion etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You have a once per combat spend healing surge power</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">you have pushs, hindering terrain</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blasts and burst</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Representation of actions looks really similar with the boxes than 4E does.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monster stat blocks also look similar to 4E ones.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Advancement is not class bound, but there are things which are similar to paragon paths (can only be selected if you have a certain "baseclass" (spell school).</li> </ul>So it is still a work in progress, but its already a cool game and looks really well done.</blockquote>

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