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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9572451" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Three reasons.1. This argument, "it would've been great if it wasn't called D&D", is just a more subtle and sophisticated way of excluding 4e from being D&D. It's the urbane, genteel way to redefine D&D so that 4e can be excluded as never having actually been D&D in the first place. I thus reject it for the same reasons I reject the to-the-point version.2. The fact is, name matters. Names always mattered, of course--words have meaning and names have power--but this pretty well proves it. PF2e had everything a game could want for a new version: a large and engaged fanbase, lore that would give a reason for that fanbase to stay, and 10-15 years' experience with various iterations of the same rules system (3.0, 3.5, PF1). It should have been the perfect ground for demonstrating that a 4e-like game could succeed if it were simply allowed to exist without the D&D name. This demonstrably did not happen. Pathfinder 2nd edition was completely obliterated by 5e in terms of measurable numbers of games played.3. Your question is flawed, because it's asking the wrong kind of thing. The thing I replied to was quite clearly indicating that EVERYTHING D&D-like, including the thematics, had to be removed so 4e could soar. I couldn't possibly disagree more: concepts like the Paladin (whose Lay on Hands was FOR THE FIRST TIME actually a personal sacrifice!), the Warlord as a whole, the Full Disciplines of Monk? None of those could have existed if this system had to cut out both the label and any thematics that smell too much like D&D. I'm very much of the opinion that the chassis is a good chassis for a game system--regardless of the label applied. I am, however, never going to accept that 4e could have succeeded anywhere near as much as it did if you had to carve out all the fantasy trappings and fantasy-CRPG-defining concepts that come from being an edition of D&D.</blockquote>

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