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<blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 9580375" data-attributes="member: 7029588">Yep.&nbsp;&nbsp; The biggest gripe I have on the 4e bashing is the insistence on using the worst paradigms to evaluate 4e when better ones are available.To be fair, I'm not even sure all the 4e authors knew how to frame 4e correctly from the start, but we can do that now.Stuff like Come and Get it being mind control when you can go into authorial stance and not have this be trueShouting wounds closed, when you can just interpret HPs as &quot;heroic fortitude points&quot;The whole 'farm house locks will suddenly be DC45' when you return to the same village at Epic level, when it makes a lot more sense to think that the fiction has to be relevant to apply a &quot;level appropriate DC&quot;Just in general not embracing the paradigm that 4e rules are primarily meant to model the interaction of Level X PCs with Level appropriate challenges (+/- 4 levels say)&nbsp; to produce &quot;in world fiction&quot; that is coherent.&nbsp;&nbsp; The rules are not really meant to model any other interactions, and yes trying to do so can lead to silliness.&nbsp;&nbsp; Just don't do it.Minions don't have 1 HP &quot;in world&quot;, there is no such thing in world as a minion, HPs, powers, etc.&nbsp; &nbsp; Modeling a monster as a regular monster then a minion later does not have to have any implications on the in world interactions between that monster and farmer brown, etc.I'm ok with someone who says &quot;that kind of system operating under those assumptions doesn't appeal to me &quot;.I don't have a lot of patience for the frequent &quot;4e is dumb.&nbsp;&nbsp; A hill giant minion could get killed by farmer&quot;.&nbsp; &quot;Well, 4e models interactions between PCs and appropriate challenges, not between challenges and other in world things -- minion is only a model to simulate how the creature would stand up to these particular high level PCs.&nbsp; &nbsp; At this level, hill giants can be killed easily by a high level fighter which is the fiction we are gong for.&nbsp;&nbsp; Make sense? &quot;&quot;Nah.&nbsp;&nbsp; 4e has to make sense under my assumptions -- stats should be simulationist and allow me to compare NPC to NPC to PC.&nbsp;&nbsp; 4e is non-sensical &quot;&quot;Ok, but do you agree that if you adopt this other paradigm, everything is coherent and holds together?&nbsp;&nbsp; Wait, where are you going....?&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bert1001 fka bert1000, post: 9580375, member: 7029588"] Yep. The biggest gripe I have on the 4e bashing is the insistence on using the worst paradigms to evaluate 4e when better ones are available. To be fair, I'm not even sure all the 4e authors knew how to frame 4e correctly from the start, but we can do that now. Stuff like Come and Get it being mind control when you can go into authorial stance and not have this be true Shouting wounds closed, when you can just interpret HPs as "heroic fortitude points" The whole 'farm house locks will suddenly be DC45' when you return to the same village at Epic level, when it makes a lot more sense to think that the fiction has to be relevant to apply a "level appropriate DC" Just in general not embracing the paradigm that 4e rules are primarily meant to model the interaction of Level X PCs with Level appropriate challenges (+/- 4 levels say) to produce "in world fiction" that is coherent. The rules are not really meant to model any other interactions, and yes trying to do so can lead to silliness. Just don't do it. Minions don't have 1 HP "in world", there is no such thing in world as a minion, HPs, powers, etc. Modeling a monster as a regular monster then a minion later does not have to have any implications on the in world interactions between that monster and farmer brown, etc. I'm ok with someone who says "that kind of system operating under those assumptions doesn't appeal to me ". I don't have a lot of patience for the frequent "4e is dumb. A hill giant minion could get killed by farmer". "Well, 4e models interactions between PCs and appropriate challenges, not between challenges and other in world things -- minion is only a model to simulate how the creature would stand up to these particular high level PCs. At this level, hill giants can be killed easily by a high level fighter which is the fiction we are gong for. Make sense? " "Nah. 4e has to make sense under my assumptions -- stats should be simulationist and allow me to compare NPC to NPC to PC. 4e is non-sensical " "Ok, but do you agree that if you adopt this other paradigm, everything is coherent and holds together? Wait, where are you going....?" [/QUOTE]

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