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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8425380" data-attributes="member: 71699">Suppose I advance a hypothesis - D&D invests more pages (words, rules, whatever measure we favour) in character advancement than any other RPG, and that contribute materially to its success. It's a two-part hypothesis. One way to disprove the first part is simply - take another RPG that we think comes close, and count pages invested in character advancement. The second part is perhaps harder to disprove, and is perhaps what [USER=7023840]@Snarf Zagyg[/USER]'s OP best speaks to.But if we can find another RPG that invests as much in character advancement as D&D, but succeeds less well, then character advancement can't be the only factor. (It isn't ruled out as a factor, nor even as the most important factor, but there it would imply there are other factors that have a material impact.)So - Pathfinder - I think it puts about the same page count as D&D into character advancement. Why isn't it as successful as D&D? In design parlance, I think that an RPG may have what are called basic features, and performance features. Basic features are like wheels on a normal road car. Drivers just expect their road cars to have tires - they're not an optional extra. Performance features (aka excitement features) are like the Tesla Model S 1000 HP. But clearly you don't have to have 1000 HP to have a viable road car - its an optional extra.I believe D&D designers invest great care into creating classes and sub-classes that are distinct and offer interest over a long campaign arc. I agree with the OP that character advancement was a profound innovation underpinning D&D's initial successes. I suspect (and of course, the OP doesn't rule out, by any means) that there are other factors that are having a material impact. And maybe that is really the thing with D&D: each part of the package is at a very high level of quality. It continues to offer a very good take on its own original innovation, while also having strong visual design, strong writing, thoughtful supporting products, etc.</blockquote>

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