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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8426455" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I...personally think you're just wrong on this then.</p><p></p><p>Plenty of games assume a campaign, or at least something much longer than a one-shot. Even some legit actual <em>board games</em>, like Kingdom Death, straight-up expect multiple sessions of play. <em>Call of Cthulhu</em>, <em>Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying</em>, the various <em>World of Darkness</em> games, various <em>Star Wars</em> games, the nigh-innumerable systems Powered by the Apocalypse, <em>Shadowrun</em>, <em>Cyberpunk</em>, <em>Das Schwarze Auge</em>, I'm sure I could list more if I went out and dug them up. And plenty of these, while either listening to, inspired by, or defying D&D convetion, definitely are <em>not</em> D&D games.</p><p></p><p>Tons of systems, with different genres, implied settings, or perspectives pull off exactly the same reward loop as D&D. Your "(and similar systems)" sweeps under the rug easily <em>dozens</em> of unrelated things. D&D retains its lofty position primarily through familiarity, marketing, and having been the top dog. Much like, for example, <em>EverQuest</em> retained <em>its</em> position as top dog for several years, before its aging mechanics and antiquated (often, <em>very specifically D&D-derived</em>) player experience got trumped by the hot new thing, <em>World of Warcraft</em>, which became enough of a juggernaut that it took some pretty serious controversy and missteps before it began to fumble--and it's still not clear that it's truly lost its way yet.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay so...how exactly can one even <em>do</em> that?</p><p></p><p>You seem to be saying, essentially, "anything that uses these things is D&D-like," which makes the argument circular: nothing can use these structures without being D&D-like, and anything D&D-like doesn't count as a different system using these structures, no matter how unrelated it might be.</p><p></p><p>Like, if we applied this exact same logic to fantasy topics, you're basically saying that <em>absolutely everything</em> which includes elves that are human-sized and at least <em>used</em> to have an ancient and powerful society is 100% "Tolkien-like," and thus it's impossible to tell a fantasy story with elves in it that isn't Tolkien-like. Except...that we generally recognize that it's totally possible to have a high-fantasy story that <em>learns from</em> Tolkien without merely <em>being</em> Tolkien with a fresh coat of paint. Elves in Dragon Age, for example, are not (as OSP puts it) "gorgeous, elegant relics of a better time, ancient, wise, and more than a little alien." They're almost all either (a) <em>slaves</em> or at least a racially-oppressed minority within human cities ("Alienage" elves) or (b) "savage" <em>wild folk</em> who live in the forests and conduct guerilla campaigns against humans for current atrocities and past wickedness.</p><p></p><p>So: Is it even <em>possible</em> for a game to include structures like experience, levels, etc. and not be, by whatever definition you're using, "D&D-like"? Because if not, then your argument is circular as I've said. You've defined the term so that it can't happen. If, on the other hand, there <em>is</em> some way in which a game could use these things without being "D&D-like," then we can actually have a conversation about how such things could occur.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8426455, member: 6790260"] I...personally think you're just wrong on this then. Plenty of games assume a campaign, or at least something much longer than a one-shot. Even some legit actual [I]board games[/I], like Kingdom Death, straight-up expect multiple sessions of play. [I]Call of Cthulhu[/I], [I]Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying[/I], the various [I]World of Darkness[/I] games, various [I]Star Wars[/I] games, the nigh-innumerable systems Powered by the Apocalypse, [I]Shadowrun[/I], [I]Cyberpunk[/I], [I]Das Schwarze Auge[/I], I'm sure I could list more if I went out and dug them up. And plenty of these, while either listening to, inspired by, or defying D&D convetion, definitely are [I]not[/I] D&D games. Tons of systems, with different genres, implied settings, or perspectives pull off exactly the same reward loop as D&D. Your "(and similar systems)" sweeps under the rug easily [I]dozens[/I] of unrelated things. D&D retains its lofty position primarily through familiarity, marketing, and having been the top dog. Much like, for example, [I]EverQuest[/I] retained [I]its[/I] position as top dog for several years, before its aging mechanics and antiquated (often, [I]very specifically D&D-derived[/I]) player experience got trumped by the hot new thing, [I]World of Warcraft[/I], which became enough of a juggernaut that it took some pretty serious controversy and missteps before it began to fumble--and it's still not clear that it's truly lost its way yet. Okay so...how exactly can one even [I]do[/I] that? You seem to be saying, essentially, "anything that uses these things is D&D-like," which makes the argument circular: nothing can use these structures without being D&D-like, and anything D&D-like doesn't count as a different system using these structures, no matter how unrelated it might be. Like, if we applied this exact same logic to fantasy topics, you're basically saying that [I]absolutely everything[/I] which includes elves that are human-sized and at least [I]used[/I] to have an ancient and powerful society is 100% "Tolkien-like," and thus it's impossible to tell a fantasy story with elves in it that isn't Tolkien-like. Except...that we generally recognize that it's totally possible to have a high-fantasy story that [I]learns from[/I] Tolkien without merely [I]being[/I] Tolkien with a fresh coat of paint. Elves in Dragon Age, for example, are not (as OSP puts it) "gorgeous, elegant relics of a better time, ancient, wise, and more than a little alien." They're almost all either (a) [I]slaves[/I] or at least a racially-oppressed minority within human cities ("Alienage" elves) or (b) "savage" [I]wild folk[/I] who live in the forests and conduct guerilla campaigns against humans for current atrocities and past wickedness. So: Is it even [I]possible[/I] for a game to include structures like experience, levels, etc. and not be, by whatever definition you're using, "D&D-like"? Because if not, then your argument is circular as I've said. You've defined the term so that it can't happen. If, on the other hand, there [I]is[/I] some way in which a game could use these things without being "D&D-like," then we can actually have a conversation about how such things could occur. [/QUOTE]
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