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Message: <blockquote data-quote="shadzar" data-source="post: 5461692" data-attributes="member: 6667746">Yup. to some it is that simple, when a subjective word is used such as "good" or "bad" it is always the view or the speaker.As to this part..."4e is a bad game" =/= "non-simulationist games are bad games""4e is a bad game" =/= "I don't like non-simulationist games"Someone can think 4e is a bad game and think non-simulationist games are good games, even if they feel 4e is a non-simulationist game.That is one of the problems with the Rome analogy and trying to be all inclusive.Not everyone will think ALL non-simulationist games are bad or good, even if they consider 4e to be one.When people mention the minis that you replied that too, you need to look at some minis games to get the idea.DDM sets up a combat where you pick a small group of figures and play on a limited selection of maps. This is like other CMG such as Clix games.Warhammer setups up a combat where you pick your group, then pick you abilities for members of that group (such as attack power, defense power, weapons, armor, feats, skills, etc), and each combat can be had it a newly designed arena. 4th edition is a step closer to a full blown minis wargame than DDM because the focus.Warhammer even lets you connect those combats with story, and decide, before combat, story that gets you there. Once you are in that combat box, the rules exist for that lengthy simulated combat. Warhammer and 4th edition offer some pretty strong rules based on movement parameters, flanking, moving other pieces, ranged and CQ combat, etc.Likewise BOTH can easily ignore any interconnected story to get you there. Yes previous editions could be just strings of combat, but in comparison to 4th they weren't as developed on the combat front. So it is that direct mention of minis in the games mechanics, coupled with the direct focus on the combat, that makes 4th edition scream miniatures game to many.The fact you can add "story"/"narrative" to them, doesn't make it a stronger resemblance to something else. Monopoly can have story added, but it doesn't make it an RPG. You do play a "role" in Monopoly, but it is the role of yourself in a combined real world and monopoly mini world contained within the board. The games where you play the role of yourself, are the ones where you are an armchair general.Again it is all about perspective. One person says "4e isnt' D&D to me", "4e is a tactical miniatures game", and someone else feels they have to defend it.Just accept what the other person is saying as their view, even if you dont have the same view. It doesn't affect your ability to play.If you fear that a furthering of that view by many others may change the game and move it away from a version you like to use to one you don't like to use then, Welcome to D&D. You have now finally had the "D&D Experience". Where what you play is nullified as valid and changed by the masses to something else. Continue to use your edition of choice, with those others you can find to do so, as others have done for nearly 40 years.4th edition is to D&D, what X-2 is to Final Fantasy.</blockquote>

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