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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5467225" data-attributes="member: 18280">I am using the term "objection" in a manner consistent with the debate rule that says, "To make a convincing argument, you must first understand and address the objections".  Which is to say, if you don't understand and address the other point of view, your argument will always lack force to anyone who doesn't already share your point of view.So, in this case, the "objection" is the gist of your opponent's argument.  AFAICT, neither you nor anyone else has addressed/answered it in any meaningful way.  ByronD can agree with everything else you say, but if what you say doesn't answer his objection/argument, he's still not going to agree with you.  And he will be right not to.I don't think that I can rewrite ByronD's argument to make it any clearer, or any more forceful, than he has done.  That you continue to reinforce his argument without being aware of doing so (by using examples that demonstrate his argument, rather than which counter it), makes me believe that you are misunderstanding his position.My best rephrasing is (and, please, ByronD, correct me if I am wrong):When playing the game, both the mechanics and the fictional reality are important, and inform each other.  However, either the mechanics come before the fictional reality, or the fictional reality comes before the mechanics.  Where the mechanics come before the fictional reality, the narrative must be made to fit the mechanics.  Where the fictional reality comes before the mechanics, the mechanics are dropped when they conflict with that fictional reality. It is not important how the narrative is modified for this to be true.  That you have infinite ways to modify the narrative is not important, and does not disprove this assertion. In your examples, you show how the mechanics take precedence over the fictional reality in skill challenges. That a single "right" answer cannot resolve a skill challenge is, in itself, strong evidence that the skill challenge mechanic is one where the mechanics come before the fictional reality. Regardless of preference, and without claiming that one is better than the other, games where the mechanics take precedence over the fictional reality are not the same as games where the fictional reality takes precedence over the mechanics.That isn't as well put, or as detailed, as ByronD's posts, but I think it is accurate.RC</blockquote>

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