Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5471108" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Like I said in my post, I'm not suggesting that you or Pawsplay is ignorant. But to be perfectly honest, I feel that this is not true of everyone on ENworld. </p><p></p><p>Without wanting to rudely name any names, I do think that there are some - even quite a few - posters on ENworld who do not have much familiarity with games that aren't either D&D in drag (choose a class or equivalent, choose a race or equivalent, and from all that derive some abilities that are then deployed in a more-or-less simulationist action resolution mechanic) or simulatonist-heavy points buy (HERO, GURPS etc).</p><p></p><p>Of course this wouldn't be an issue - no one is obliged to be informed about comparative trivialities like trends in RPG design and play! - except that the ignorance in question is from time to time manifested in threads about the problems with, or limitations of, 4e.</p><p></p><p>Because I don't want to name names, and also because this sort of impression is impossible to verify in the context of an online messageboard, I'll give a mechanics-focused example instead.</p><p></p><p>When I see critiques of healing surges in 4e, the <em>overwhelmingly</em> common criticism is of the "regenerate overnight" aspect. But this is a completely trivial element of 4e, which could be houseruled away with basically no consequences except for the desired affect upon adventure pacing (ie recovery from hurt would take longer). Healing surges, considered in this sort of way, are no different from hit points in earlier editions - a resource that can be gradually worn away, and that - depending on the pace of recovery - has a greater-or-less effect upon the overall pace of the game. This role of "healing surges as hit points" is reflected in the healing surge consequences of some skill challenges - just like traps or environmental hazards in AD&D, healing surges are a resource that can be worn down by attrition.</p><p></p><p>If this was all there was to healing surges, then they would just be hit points by another name, and 4e - in this respect - would just be AD&D or 3E with rapid overnight healing built into the game. (There's also the fact that some magical healing draws on them - but that's a means to implementing the end of encounter pacing that is discussed in the next paragraph.)</p><p></p><p>What is actually <em>different</em> about healing surges - what makes them not just hit points by another name - is the role they play in affecting the pace and dynamics of combat encounters. And this is where simulationist versus non-simulationist preferences come into play - compare second wind to the Raven Crowking alternative (sorry, my mind is going blank, but I think it's called "shrugging it off"). The RC approach prioritises simulation, with a possible payoff in drama and pacing. The 4e approach prioritises drama and pacing, while leaving the narrative to be worked around the mechanics as makes sense from time to time (there is an interesting sidebar on second wind in Primal Power, which talks about how second wind, for a Warden, represents the character's infusion by primal spirits - in the RC game, I assume that this would have to be a spell or some similar non-mundane ability - it is quite different from shrugging it off).</p><p></p><p>This is just one example where - in my view - unfamiliarity with a range of RPGs, their design, and the way those designs promote or inhibit various sorts of approaches to play, gets in the way of useful discussion about playing the game. Because in my view, that sort of discussion can happen <em>even among those who like to play in different ways</em>. But it helps if the possibility of different ways is at least acknowledged!</p><p></p><p>(Again - none of this is aimed at Raven Crowking - who, precisely through his approach to in-combat recovery in his game, shows that he <em>has</em> seen where the real design action is in respect of healing surges.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5471108, member: 42582"] Like I said in my post, I'm not suggesting that you or Pawsplay is ignorant. But to be perfectly honest, I feel that this is not true of everyone on ENworld. Without wanting to rudely name any names, I do think that there are some - even quite a few - posters on ENworld who do not have much familiarity with games that aren't either D&D in drag (choose a class or equivalent, choose a race or equivalent, and from all that derive some abilities that are then deployed in a more-or-less simulationist action resolution mechanic) or simulatonist-heavy points buy (HERO, GURPS etc). Of course this wouldn't be an issue - no one is obliged to be informed about comparative trivialities like trends in RPG design and play! - except that the ignorance in question is from time to time manifested in threads about the problems with, or limitations of, 4e. Because I don't want to name names, and also because this sort of impression is impossible to verify in the context of an online messageboard, I'll give a mechanics-focused example instead. When I see critiques of healing surges in 4e, the [I]overwhelmingly[/i] common criticism is of the "regenerate overnight" aspect. But this is a completely trivial element of 4e, which could be houseruled away with basically no consequences except for the desired affect upon adventure pacing (ie recovery from hurt would take longer). Healing surges, considered in this sort of way, are no different from hit points in earlier editions - a resource that can be gradually worn away, and that - depending on the pace of recovery - has a greater-or-less effect upon the overall pace of the game. This role of "healing surges as hit points" is reflected in the healing surge consequences of some skill challenges - just like traps or environmental hazards in AD&D, healing surges are a resource that can be worn down by attrition. If this was all there was to healing surges, then they would just be hit points by another name, and 4e - in this respect - would just be AD&D or 3E with rapid overnight healing built into the game. (There's also the fact that some magical healing draws on them - but that's a means to implementing the end of encounter pacing that is discussed in the next paragraph.) What is actually [I]different[/I] about healing surges - what makes them not just hit points by another name - is the role they play in affecting the pace and dynamics of combat encounters. And this is where simulationist versus non-simulationist preferences come into play - compare second wind to the Raven Crowking alternative (sorry, my mind is going blank, but I think it's called "shrugging it off"). The RC approach prioritises simulation, with a possible payoff in drama and pacing. The 4e approach prioritises drama and pacing, while leaving the narrative to be worked around the mechanics as makes sense from time to time (there is an interesting sidebar on second wind in Primal Power, which talks about how second wind, for a Warden, represents the character's infusion by primal spirits - in the RC game, I assume that this would have to be a spell or some similar non-mundane ability - it is quite different from shrugging it off). This is just one example where - in my view - unfamiliarity with a range of RPGs, their design, and the way those designs promote or inhibit various sorts of approaches to play, gets in the way of useful discussion about playing the game. Because in my view, that sort of discussion can happen [I]even among those who like to play in different ways[/I]. But it helps if the possibility of different ways is at least acknowledged! (Again - none of this is aimed at Raven Crowking - who, precisely through his approach to in-combat recovery in his game, shows that he [I]has[/I] seen where the real design action is in respect of healing surges.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)
Top