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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5479910" data-attributes="member: 22779">/me is really, REALLY sorry for bringing up the colors/forests thing.&nbsp; I was trying to make a point, that apparently got completely lost.&nbsp; That a government body can make an aribitrary definition of forest, AND, the fact that that definition changes with every country, pretty much tells me that you cannot actually define a forest.&nbsp; If you could, then every government body everywhere would use the same definition.&nbsp; Arrrrghghghhg!!!&nbsp; I don't want to get into this.&nbsp; /me fails saving throw. Sigh.&nbsp; *ahem*Let's move away from jump for a second because that seems to be causing some confusion.&nbsp; Let's use trip instead, because that's actually not a hypothetical.&nbsp; In 3e, you could attempt to trip someone in combat all the time.&nbsp; Any time you wanted.&nbsp; In 4e, you can't (well, you can, but, it requires you to Page 42 it).&nbsp; So, it seems that 3e is less constrained than 4e right?But, let's drill down a bit.&nbsp; In 3e, if I attempt to trip, I draw an AOO, which, if it succeeds, blocks my trip attempt.&nbsp; Then, I make a melee touch attack and if that fails, my trip attack fails.&nbsp; Then I make a trip check, and if that fails, not only does my attack fail, but I could be tripped in return.What this adds up to is a heavy mechanical leaning towards forcing players to take improved trip before even trying to trip anyone.&nbsp; The mechanics allow you to try it without the feat, but, make it such a bad idea, that no one actually does it.&nbsp; And if you think I'm wrong, ask yourself this:&nbsp; How often, as a DM, did you use a trip attack on a PC when the opponent didn't have some sort of tripping power like a wolf?&nbsp; How often did you see a player use the trip mechanics that didn't have Improved Trip?4e takes a very different approach.&nbsp; It says that you can try to trip all day long, but, you will only succeed a limited number of times.&nbsp; That limit is defined by your character powers.&nbsp; If you don't have a power that knocks people prone, then you are the same as the 3e character without Improved Trip - just more explicit.&nbsp; If you do have a trip power, then you will succeed in that attempt presuming that you hit.&nbsp; But, you won't be able to do it every single round, over and over again, because, well, that's kinda lame and doesn't fit with the genre.Both games have very hard and fast mechanical limitations on trip.&nbsp; The only real difference in my mind is that 3e puts them at the front and 4e puts them in during play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5479910, member: 22779"] /me is really, REALLY sorry for bringing up the colors/forests thing. I was trying to make a point, that apparently got completely lost. That a government body can make an aribitrary definition of forest, AND, the fact that that definition changes with every country, pretty much tells me that you cannot actually define a forest. If you could, then every government body everywhere would use the same definition. Arrrrghghghhg!!! I don't want to get into this. /me fails saving throw. Sigh. *ahem* Let's move away from jump for a second because that seems to be causing some confusion. Let's use trip instead, because that's actually not a hypothetical. In 3e, you could attempt to trip someone in combat all the time. Any time you wanted. In 4e, you can't (well, you can, but, it requires you to Page 42 it). So, it seems that 3e is less constrained than 4e right? But, let's drill down a bit. In 3e, if I attempt to trip, I draw an AOO, which, if it succeeds, blocks my trip attempt. Then, I make a melee touch attack and if that fails, my trip attack fails. Then I make a trip check, and if that fails, not only does my attack fail, but I could be tripped in return. What this adds up to is a heavy mechanical leaning towards forcing players to take improved trip before even trying to trip anyone. The mechanics allow you to try it without the feat, but, make it such a bad idea, that no one actually does it. And if you think I'm wrong, ask yourself this: How often, as a DM, did you use a trip attack on a PC when the opponent didn't have some sort of tripping power like a wolf? How often did you see a player use the trip mechanics that didn't have Improved Trip? 4e takes a very different approach. It says that you can try to trip all day long, but, you will only succeed a limited number of times. That limit is defined by your character powers. If you don't have a power that knocks people prone, then you are the same as the 3e character without Improved Trip - just more explicit. If you do have a trip power, then you will succeed in that attempt presuming that you hit. But, you won't be able to do it every single round, over and over again, because, well, that's kinda lame and doesn't fit with the genre. Both games have very hard and fast mechanical limitations on trip. The only real difference in my mind is that 3e puts them at the front and 4e puts them in during play. [/QUOTE]

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