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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5481880" data-attributes="member: 957">All roads do NOT lead to Rome....Just speaking for myself here, but I don't for a second challenge your experience, or Hussar's or anyone else's.But, all that means to me is that different groups sit down to the table with very different notions and expectations.&nbsp; Now I would not ever suggest that there are two points of view here.&nbsp; It is vastly more complex than that.&nbsp; But, for sake of discussion, lets just assume people with experiences like you and Hussar and people with experiences like Abraxas and myself.I fully expect that, for people in the former group, 4E not only provides ever bit of value that 3E provided, it also does a better job of it.But, for the latter group, 3E does a vastly better job.I also think that 3E does a much better job of supporting the former style than 4E does of supporting the latter.&nbsp; That doesn't mean that 4E doesn't still do far better for 4E style.&nbsp; It just means you can't look at these comparisons as mirror images and get an accurate assessment.Quite simply Hussar's claim is not a fact, it is just a personal observation.&nbsp; I honestly don't keep track of how often trips are used.&nbsp; I think the very idea that this is a point of contention is just hydra head number (big number)+1 demonstrating that the point doesn't not translate between the two groups.More trips or less trips don't matter.&nbsp; If you think it does, then you don't understand where we are coming from.My answer to the question is: trips get used every time the player wants to.&nbsp; The rules do not play a factor in that question.&nbsp; Yes, a character who is not conceived as someone who is going to do a lot of tripping will want to try to trip someone less frequently than one who is conceived that way.&nbsp; But &quot;daily&quot; or &quot;until I run out of cards&quot; or whatever gamist mechanic of the moment applies will not be any part of the answer.Yes, having tripping be hard to do without being trained to do it will discourage trying in lieu of other, easy to complete options.&nbsp; My response to that is: YES!!!&nbsp; Hurray!!!&nbsp;&nbsp; Things that are hard, should be hard.&nbsp; And characters choosing not do things that are harder is not a system flaw.&nbsp; Now, we can debate whether or not 3E did a good job of providing a system for making tripping appropriately hard.&nbsp; (I think it is fine, but could be better.)But how good 3E does at modeling it is really a different debate altogether.&nbsp; The point is: is the decision based on whether or not a player thinks the character would decide to try or is it based on gamist mechanic of the moment?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5481880, member: 957"] All roads do NOT lead to Rome.... Just speaking for myself here, but I don't for a second challenge your experience, or Hussar's or anyone else's. But, all that means to me is that different groups sit down to the table with very different notions and expectations. Now I would not ever suggest that there are two points of view here. It is vastly more complex than that. But, for sake of discussion, lets just assume people with experiences like you and Hussar and people with experiences like Abraxas and myself. I fully expect that, for people in the former group, 4E not only provides ever bit of value that 3E provided, it also does a better job of it. But, for the latter group, 3E does a vastly better job. I also think that 3E does a much better job of supporting the former style than 4E does of supporting the latter. That doesn't mean that 4E doesn't still do far better for 4E style. It just means you can't look at these comparisons as mirror images and get an accurate assessment. Quite simply Hussar's claim is not a fact, it is just a personal observation. I honestly don't keep track of how often trips are used. I think the very idea that this is a point of contention is just hydra head number (big number)+1 demonstrating that the point doesn't not translate between the two groups. More trips or less trips don't matter. If you think it does, then you don't understand where we are coming from. My answer to the question is: trips get used every time the player wants to. The rules do not play a factor in that question. Yes, a character who is not conceived as someone who is going to do a lot of tripping will want to try to trip someone less frequently than one who is conceived that way. But "daily" or "until I run out of cards" or whatever gamist mechanic of the moment applies will not be any part of the answer. Yes, having tripping be hard to do without being trained to do it will discourage trying in lieu of other, easy to complete options. My response to that is: YES!!! Hurray!!! Things that are hard, should be hard. And characters choosing not do things that are harder is not a system flaw. Now, we can debate whether or not 3E did a good job of providing a system for making tripping appropriately hard. (I think it is fine, but could be better.) But how good 3E does at modeling it is really a different debate altogether. The point is: is the decision based on whether or not a player thinks the character would decide to try or is it based on gamist mechanic of the moment? [/QUOTE]

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