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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5482334" data-attributes="member: 22779">See, I disagree.&nbsp; The mechanics totally play a factor in the question of &quot;Do I want to do X&quot; in a given system.&nbsp; I think it's hair splitting to say there's a significant difference to &quot;You can try this all you like, but you will fail almost every time&quot; and &quot;You can't do this at all.&quot;Obviously we disagree on this.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />I don't think you can separate the two.&nbsp; Players are not stupid.&nbsp; They are not going to attempt actions that will almost certainly fail, particularly if failure carries consequences beyond simply failing.&nbsp; Players will very often be able to calculate the odds of success pretty easily and will, again very often, base their actions on a risk/reward basis.Nearly all the risk and reward is mechanically determined which means that the players actions will very often be determined by the mechanics of the system.If the mechanics say, &quot;You can do this and it will work if you hit&quot; then players will do it if they think they will hit.&nbsp; If the mechanics say, &quot;You can try this but your chances of success are slim and if you fail, you're going to get punished&quot; then, unless that success is critical, they won't do it.The only real difference here with 4e is that 4e says, &quot;You can do this now and it will work, if you hit but you won't be able to do it later.&nbsp; Is it worth it to do it now?&quot;, so the decision is shifted from playing the odds at the moment to playing a longer game where you might not have this resource later on down the line.But, in both cases, the player's decisions will be very largely influenced by the mechanics.&nbsp; Players don't make decisions in a vacuum very often, unless you're free-forming.&nbsp; That assessment of risk/reward is always going to come into the decision making process.From a personal point of view, I'm kinda ambivalent.&nbsp; I can see the value in both systems and, depending on who I'm playing with and what game, I can swing from either side of the plate.But, I don't think it's deniable to say that most RPG's now come with social interaction rules.&nbsp; It's pretty rare to find any games outside of OSR stuff that leaves social interaction entirely freeform.&nbsp; It's certainly there, sure, but, I think the players have largely spoken on this issue and decided that social mechanics are a good thing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5482334, member: 22779"] See, I disagree. The mechanics totally play a factor in the question of "Do I want to do X" in a given system. I think it's hair splitting to say there's a significant difference to "You can try this all you like, but you will fail almost every time" and "You can't do this at all." Obviously we disagree on this. :D I don't think you can separate the two. Players are not stupid. They are not going to attempt actions that will almost certainly fail, particularly if failure carries consequences beyond simply failing. Players will very often be able to calculate the odds of success pretty easily and will, again very often, base their actions on a risk/reward basis. Nearly all the risk and reward is mechanically determined which means that the players actions will very often be determined by the mechanics of the system. If the mechanics say, "You can do this and it will work if you hit" then players will do it if they think they will hit. If the mechanics say, "You can try this but your chances of success are slim and if you fail, you're going to get punished" then, unless that success is critical, they won't do it. The only real difference here with 4e is that 4e says, "You can do this now and it will work, if you hit but you won't be able to do it later. Is it worth it to do it now?", so the decision is shifted from playing the odds at the moment to playing a longer game where you might not have this resource later on down the line. But, in both cases, the player's decisions will be very largely influenced by the mechanics. Players don't make decisions in a vacuum very often, unless you're free-forming. That assessment of risk/reward is always going to come into the decision making process. From a personal point of view, I'm kinda ambivalent. I can see the value in both systems and, depending on who I'm playing with and what game, I can swing from either side of the plate. But, I don't think it's deniable to say that most RPG's now come with social interaction rules. It's pretty rare to find any games outside of OSR stuff that leaves social interaction entirely freeform. It's certainly there, sure, but, I think the players have largely spoken on this issue and decided that social mechanics are a good thing. [/QUOTE]

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