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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sundragon2012" data-source="post: 3747486" data-attributes="member: 7624">Well, you're correct of course. They outer planes represent ideals in their purest form. The problem is not that they represent the pinnacles of certain ideals. The moral relativism comes into play when you have a dynamic and natural equality between these ethical positions. There is NO objective higher standard. The morality of hell is as morally valid for hell as the morality of heaven in for heaven. Who can argue with this? Who can claim the good guys are right. They can believe that they are correct and from the position of the heavens or elysium they would be right, however from the point of view of hell or the abyss they are deluded fools.I think that prior to Planescape there was little discussion of the moral philosophical ramifications of the planes and their nature. I think that Planscape, if it contributed anything to an increase in moral relativism, would be to highlight what was already there. D&D never made claim that that good was actually cosmically superior to evil only that the denizens of the upper planes would be more pleasurable company. Even when souls of the wicked are being tormented in hell, it is not real punishment, but instead a darwinian weeding out of the weak with the strong being promoted to demon/devil status.Sundragon</blockquote>