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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Korgoth" data-source="post: 3748073" data-attributes="member: 49613">@ OP: Good points.  I'm not sure I entirely agree... I have to think about it more before I can say if I agree or disagree (though I don't like the "Great Wheel" for other reasons).But what about this: aren't the infernal creatures miserable?  I'd certainly portray them as such.  Those creatures are condemned to eternal torment, so it stands to reason that they should be totally miserable, even if they're powerful.  That portrayal shows evil up to be a complete and utter lie, a "bill of goods" (pun intended), doesn't it?Maybe part of the problem is just a portrayal of such creatures as enjoying themselves.  If you stick to the notion that, even if a king of the lower realms, such a creature is condemned to complete unhappiness then maybe it won't seem so relativist.To take a rather gross example, consider Emperor Caligula.  When he heard of a slave in the slave quarter who was considered hot stuff by the ladies, he grew so jealous that he had this fellow arrested, tortured and executed.  An emperor (and one who was more than willing to spend practically the entire imperial treasury on himself) was jealous of a slave, who possessed absolutely nothing except some good looks.  It's quite possible that even though he had every material thing he could have wanted, Caligula never genuinely enjoyed a single moment of his adult life.So if the greatest king of the lower planes is utterly unhappy, and the lowest servant of the upper planes is utterly happy and satisfied, doesn't that alone make the upper planes objectively better?</blockquote>

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