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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sundragon2012" data-source="post: 3748600" data-attributes="member: 7624">What are you talking about?I am not saying I buy into the moral relativism the Great Wheel espouses, I see it as flawed and damaging to the genre myself. What you write above seems to be the propoganda line Orcus' cronies will tell potential converts.I am not commenting on the whether or not demons lie about the benefits of going along with them. I am saying that ultimately there is no punishment for evil. Oh there is suffering, there is pain, but it is a suffering that weeds out the weak and garnishes a promotion for the strong in the form of transformation into a demon or devil themselves.Ultimately, though it is a hate filled, painful, tormented, fearful existance the soul of those cast into hell or the abyss become aligned to it and become one with it. It isn't a punishment to be sent to the abyss when one is chaotic evil. No angry deity casts a chaotic evil soul into the abyss, the soul is drawn there by its own nature.Fundamentally, a soul in the abyss is there because it can be nowhere else. This isn't a punishment, it is merely the spiritual lifecycle of a soul aligned to chaotic evil. True, but I am not making the demon's argument, I am making an argument based on the cosmological underpinnings of the Great Wheel. On the Great Wheel all alignments have equal validity and weight in the cosmic scheme of things because their is no ultimate truth, no ultimate reality.Good people are rewarded yes, very directly so by a wonderful afterlife. I agree. However, as I said before, evil people are not punished, they are drawn into the plane most aligned to themselves at the time of death. This is not punishment per se, because the chaotic evil soul feels it belongs, it would have it no other way. A chaotic evil soul would go mad in any other plane except the abyss because it wants to be where it is.You say this, but it is not evidenced by the structure of the Great Wheel. Who is to say that the demons are incorrect in their moral assumptions when there is ultimately no higher arbiter of morality in the D&D core Great Wheel cosmology. The universe according to the Great Wheel is merely one of balance in which there is no moral judgement whatsoever. All along the Great Wheel have their rightful and natural place. To remove even one would be to cast the whole thing into disarray. The universe of the Great Wheel doesn't frown on the morality of Yugoloths and Devils and more than it smiles on the morality of Archons and Eladrin.I think you are mistaken.I never claimed otherwise.My argument regarding moral relativism on the Great Wheel is not something that can be known necessarily by mortals but is instead a discussion about the underpinnings and assumptions about morality and the planes as presented by D&D core.Not necessarily true by any reading of the canon texts regarding the nature of fiends. According to canon they do what they do merely to increase their overall power, not out of jealousy or envy. I like the idea, but it isn't the way it is by way of Great Wheel canon.Sundragon</blockquote>

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