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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 279532" data-attributes="member: 4049">This entire line of reasoning is fascinating and not one with which I would argue.  However, the problem here (for me) is that many of these entities have never really been used to any great amount in an official (or unofficial printed) degree.  Given my interest in the material, I would have eaten this stuff up if it were more available.Additionally, even without hearing about Lucifer and other Overlords of Hell prior to Asmodeus, I always thought that Asmodeus was a "cover."  Anyone familiar with popular occult and demonology knows that Asmodeus was a minor Demon associated with the building of the Temple in Jerusalem and that he was bound to service by King Solomon, and that he eventually became in charge of Hell's casinos in Catholic myth.  But, I've always thought that for D&D, the name was nothing more than that (which gets back to why there are two Furcas').  I always saw Asmodeus as something greater (which Chris Pramas, being employed with WotC and writing) beat me to the punch and suggested that he was Ahriman first.  While I see the validity of what you and earlier contributors have created, I also never really saw Asmodeus as having to compete with anyone.  Sure, he gives them (Mephisto, Baalzebub, et. al) the impression that they can defeat and overthrow him, but in truth they cannot because they are no where near strong enough.  I've heard the suggestion that this position I've taken ruin the idea that Asmodeus is being challenged...  Well, not really.  If Asmodeus is something far greater and he's, forwhaterever reason, in hiding, what better way than to distract potential foes and nosey entities than by giving the impression of constantly having to watch one's back?Simply put, I always saw Asmodeus as the very first entity dedicated to Law and Evil and he's been in that position since the dawn of Creation.  Through some conflict well before the creation of most gods, Asmodeus was cast down and thought destroyed when in fact he became trapped in Hell where he created all Devils...  Was he originally called Lucifer or Ahriman or The Satan?  No one knows (at least that would have been my story), but he is now called Asmodeus in an attempt to slowly gather his power.  He uses the politics of Hell (and to a lesser extent, the entire Cosmos) as a smokescreen.Clearly, this is not what Gygax and earlier writers had in mind...  But, I think it's still a valid possibility that would account for the power level I associate with Asmodeus.  Still, I have a better understanding of what you've been saying.  My ideas were created within a framework unfamiliar with earlier, official renditions.  And, admittedly, even when I became familiar with the "official line" (like when I bought the original Manual of the Planes and found Asmodeus to be nothing greater than a lesser god) I ignored it.  Alas!  The problem with having an original idea!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" />Agree with the latter.  Obviously, I don't agree with the former.A lot of things changed as new people offered new ideas.  Dragons grew more powerful, some of the Monsters seemed to become more related to their "real world" counterparts, and so on.  I don't think that just because the earlier writers, even Mr. Gygax, created or wrote something that it means it's automatically gospel.  Is it something to consider in the hopes of having a sense of continuity within the game system?  Certainly.  But that does not mean that the "original source material" is better than later, slightly different ideas.Like many people, I was somewhat confused when the Concordant Opposition disappeared and was replaced by this place called the Outlands and the city of Sigil.  And who was the chick with the spikes coming out of her head?  But, after reading it, I found that I liked this a lot more than what I was originally familiar with (not that I agreed with it, mind you.  I saw Sigil as the hiding place to the ultimate artifact that would grant whomever wielded it complete control over all Creation and I saw the Lady of Pain as the guardian for this artifact.  Never saw her as a Tanar'ri and all this other stuff).  Do I mean to imply that newer is better?  Certainly not.  I was one of many a little ticked with the disappearance of Devils and Demons and the appearance of Baatezu and Tanar'ri, something I think weakened the necessary occult and supernatural feel of the game.  I didn't (and still don't) care for some of the new Lords of the Nine (Fierana?  Please.) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not really interested in the established word so much as I'm interested in really great possibilities for the greatest of all adventures:  The Planes of Existance, where faith, meaning, being can be explored to the fullest.(The Serge steps down from his soap box).I think the stuff above answers this question.  My ideas are based upon how I perceive Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Neutrality within a designed framework.  My thought has always been that the Demon Princes (or Demon Monarch), the Lords of the Nine, the Oinoloth/daemon, were essentially the gods of the various evil spirits they controlled.  As a result, these beings should be more powerful.Furthermore, I've always seen such beings as the epitome of a "universal" concept, something D&D is full of.  I see the gods as stewards of some of these concepts usually limited to a specific world.  But, Asmodeus is the pinnacle of Lawful Evil.  He also controls an entire Plane that is the physical manifestation of Lawful Evil.  I never saw a Lesser god as having the ability to do such a thing.  I won't get into this in detail due to time, but that's a part of my argument that gets into why I think by and large, many of the Outer Planar Cosmic entities need a boast.  (I also think there needs to be good versions of these ideas as well).Absolutely.  I've always agreed with this.  In fact, it's the reason why my version of Asmodeus (the one that should be official <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />) is trapped in Hell and can only do so much from the bottom of the Pit (again, these were ideas I was working with before Pramas' A Guide to Hell, which, unlike many other people I half-way liked).  It's why I see there as being many Intermediate god-level Demon Princes rather than just a few... this keeps them fighting against each other.Thanks!Well, I think what I described earlier is an example of a boost in power.  Don't know that I'd use the Nerull thing, although I find it fascinating...As for using real world myth.  Well, again, I think my ideas do so as well.  I've never seen the Overlord of Hell we know as "Asmodeus" as the "Asmodeus" of of Jewish/Hebrew myth, or Catholic myth.  I see the Overlord of Hell as using the name as a smokescreen while he slowly works towards something of Cosmic proportions.  The politics and conflicts of Hell are past-times to amuse him until his plans reach fruition.  I think there is even some "official" material to support this in Dragon 76 where it talks about the use of names and the like.Anyway, I will see if Scott Greene can help me out.Thanks! Anyway, I love these conversations.  Glad these boards are here for that purpose alone.</blockquote>

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