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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 281064" data-attributes="member: 326">Hi the Serge mate! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />  I agree and I am sure so would Gary.But what you were saying is that the original treatment of the subject was wrong and *this* is how it should be done. Nothing wrong with how someone details their own campaign of course; but when you want others to take your ideas over someone elses (whether they are by Gary Gygax or not) not only do you have to show why your ideas work - but you also have to show why the prior philosophy/rules, don't work...and since they do work what you advocate is merely optional at best as far as I can see.  Again I agree; but if someone wants to change philosophical fundamentals I want to understand why they are right and the previous ideas are wrong!?Something that can easily be pointed out with regards 2nd Ed's treatment of the matter.Obviously it was for 'ill' since 2nd Ed. was a monumental balls up for the most part*; hamstrung by ludicrous religious and socialogical constraints.*Albeit with a few gems in there.One of the problems I had with Planescape was the improper reasoning behind why such beings as the Demon Princes were not 'Powers'.Why couldn't it just be of 'Evil' alignment?  To me this is like taking the original Batman idea and giving him super-powers.I'm just not convinced the reverse 'just slapping Overpower status on Asmodeus' is justified.In the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes the centre of Concordant Opposition checked even Divine Power from functioning. An interesting analogy. Juxtaposed to our discussion and the treatment of the Demon Princes during the 2nd Ed. 'Dark Ages' was akin to Batman's 'camp' 60s television show. Hopefully the Book of Vile Darkness will be their 'Dark Knight' renaissance?While Asmodeus is a mythological concept - his introduction to D&D by Gary Gygax is akin to Stan Lee 'creating' the mighty Thor. He might evolve and change over time but his origins remain the same. Therefore if you say that Asmodeus is really an Overpower personification of Lawful Evil I want to know who was the 199hp; ruby rod carrying Arch-devil ruler of the Hells we are familiar with!?True. However, I choose to abide by the origins of the concept. Yes they went further than merely changing the names, but the name changes in and of themselves were not entirely problematic (thats obvious since they have retained them for 3rd Ed.)Did it ever state this in any official material? I don't like loose ends.She wasn't. Or at least not exactly. Won't be long until you read the Gord the Rogue novels now! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" />I think when you read the Gord the Rogue novels you will gain an insight into the character of such beings that sets them apart from faceless personifications.I agree - this is what I describe myself as Overgods (In fact I have every planar Overgod 'bagged and tagged' in the Immortals Handbook).But this in itself implicates more powerful entities.But they were never archetypes before. They were individuals. That doesn't mean such archetypes don't exist - just that its not them!Elohim (Solars) = Hero-deitiesMalakim = DemigodsKyriotates = Lesser GodsOphanim = Inter GodsCherubim = Greater GodsSeraphim = Elder GodsThere are also 6 lines beyond this - but I will save that for the Immortals Handbook. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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