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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 281637" data-attributes="member: 4049">Hey, UK.Well, I think on these boards, it's easy for an "immobile" attitude to appear.  By no means to I think my ideas are the only ones, although I do favor them (they are mine after all).  And, I'm of a writing school in which my ideas tend to come across as "gospel" despite my best intentions.Now, I happen to have a fully detailed rational for my cosmology.  I've never bothered to include it on any board because, quite frankly, I felt I was being a bit presumptuous (not to mention the fact that I'm a little concerned about my ideas popping up in someone's book).  I have always stated that my ideas were just that, my ideas.  I am cognizant that they may not work for everybody and that they will not often fit in with the official line.  But, I think that's one of the reasons these boards are around, to have our ideas challenged and to in turn challenge other ideas.At any rate, I don't think that what Gygax and others created don't work.  They work perfectly fine for a lot of people because what he and other created is in line with what many people want to see.  You have the additional benefit of being familiar with ideas and concepts not central to 1ed by having read additional material from Gygax.  That said, I've always thought, given what I knew, that there was more to offer with the given demons, devils, angels, gods, etc.  It's possible that my perspective will change upon reading Gygax's books, but I do not think my ideas have less weight than his.  If anything, my ideas are kind of in the same boat to most people as his original (and eventually adjusted) framework is to me.  Incomplete.  As I've stated before, I have an entire perspective for why things are the way they are based upon what I have been exposed to within the "classic" D&D cosmology. Don't think the original/previous ideas are wrong.  I think there's room for something greater (better is not an appropriate word for this kind of very subjective thing).I respect your opinions, so I'm curious to know specifically what you mean by this.  Planescape was my favorite campaign setting thus far from any D&D source.  Even in 1ed, I liked the Manual of the Planes more than any other book (save, perhaps Legends and Lore and the Demon, Devil, and Dragon sections of the Monster Manuals).  Still, there were many things that disgusted me, probably because I cared about the material so much.  I thought that the attempt to make the various Planes more "natural" as opposed to more fantastic and "supernatural" was a mistake.  Stripping the various denizens of the Planes of their occultic nature and the idea that they are spirits was also foolish.  Never liked the idea of the Eladrin, Guardinals, and other "races" for each Plane either. And there was an awful amount of inconsistency.  In one book, the Lords of the Nine were gods, in another they were powerful Pit Fiends.Too bad things are never perfect.We're in total agreement on that one.  And, what irks me is the continuation of that idea... although Cook has apparently provided an optional rule with Divine Ranks for the Lords and Princes.  However, if ed Manual of the Planes is any indication, they may not peak over DvR 5.  It is possible that I'll at least get one thing I would like to see:  Asmodeus with a DvR over 15!  Although you may not find that especially palettable, I'd be someone satisfied.Well, this where I tend to tow the official line.  The closest thing to "Evil" in D&D has always been Neutral Evil.  The concerns of Law, Order, rationalization, and structure are irrelevent.  Freedom, anarky, madness, might makes right, and other tenants of Chaos are irrelevent.  It's what I want right now regardless of what you want and, preferrably, at your expense any way I can kind of Evil.  That's always been Neutral Evil.  The Emperor from Star Wars is like this to me.A pure Evil that promotes Evil actively and consciously also seems to be Lawful Evil to me as well...  although I suppose you also say that NE could be the same, although it's not bound by Order to the same degree... No... It's more like taking the original Batman, stripping him of his homicidal tendancies, increasing the angst, making him a super-genius, a incomparable detective, fighter and scientist, and the epitome of Human achievement who, with all of these attributes, can take out any threat... including Superman.  Were any of these components around in 1939?  Nope.  Did Bill Finger or Bob Kane consider these elements?  Nope.  Are they cool and do they give the character a gravity worthy of his position as one of the most recognizable cultural icons, and an American myth?  To most comic book fans, yes.  Clearly, and you've done a superb job of stating why.  I still think he should be.  The suggestion you and someone else offered, making him an avatar of a far greater being, the true Overlord of Hell, or whatever, is a compromise I'd be willing to accept since it works well within my cosmology.Incidently, I do have my gods in my campaign setting who are subservient to Asmodeus, and who are completely unaware of his true nature in my cosmology, including three Lawful Evil gods who make their homes in the Nine Hells. I'd forgotten about that.Thanks! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />The Stan Lee thing is good...  If Asmodeus is really the Overpower personification of Lawful Evil, the guy carrying the Ruby Rod of Hell with 199 HP was his weakened "avatar."  The true Asmodeus is trapped at the "bottom" of Hell where he plots to escape.  The "Asmodeus" that runs around in Nessus and plays with Mephisto and Baalzebub is a smokescreen to these lesser Devils and the Planes at large.  I know this sounds similar to Pramas' stuff, but I had these ideas before A Guide to Hell came out.I honestly think they kept the names as a transitional kind of thing, not to mention an attempt not to scare the wits out of people purusing the books when they first came out.  You'll remember that we slowly started seeing the words "demon" and "devil" appear towards the end of 2ed.  It's kind of the same here.No, to my knowledge it was never stated in any official Planescape material, although Die, Vecna, Die! pretty much states that The Lady of Pain is an Overpower in that she, along with The Serpent (who seems similar to the Asmodeus presented in A Guide to Hell in some respects) were once the original entities that established the cosmos.  STOP THAT!  I have a while to go before I make that purchase, and all you're doing is making me anxious!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />While I'm certain the books will give me an insight as to how Gygax conceived the Planes, I don't think they will broaden them in my mind.  The Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine that are active in my campaign (Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, Dispater, and Asmodeus) have clear goals, interests, foibles, habits, and personalities.  They are also bigger and grander than mortals and weaker gods.I know.  I've seen your list.  I like it.  It's broader than mine.  I have two more ranks of divine beings/entities above Overpowers in my campaign, True Gods (who have an internal ranking among each other and include concepts like Time, Death, and Life), and The Creator... who is dead.Aside from it not being the original framework, why can't it be them?  There are many things that weren't before until someone expanded upon it or wrote it.  As for Gygax's books expanding on it, unfortunately (and perhaps unfairly), he never had the opportunity to have them become part of the "official" line.  As a result, other ideas cropped up, some good, some bad.  All optional and as optional as his own.  My option states that some of these guys and gals are more than they appear to be.When is this coming out?  Are you publishing it hardcopy, or while it be an electronic thing.Personally, I would like to see it hardcopy, but I expect to get it regardless.  As I've said before, I admire and respect your ideas.  I wouldn't take the time to write this much stuff if I didn't.  So, although I don't necessarily agree with everything you propose, I find it to be very convincing and worthy of serious consideration.Thanks!</blockquote>

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