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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4026058" data-attributes="member: 4937">Whereas, I think that systematic standards are a mark of simulationist play because they relate to the goal of simulationist play, but don't agree that conversely a lack of standards is a mark of narrativist play.  You can have narrativist play with or without systematic standards.  The presence or absence of standards doesn't bear directly on the goals of narrativist play.  I can create a peice of fiction with or without 'world building'.  The lack of 'world building' may prove I'm not a simulationist, but it doesn't in and of itself prove that I'm a narrativist.Again, it is my opinion that what you really need to be looking at is the motivation involved.  Any sort of play can look up close like being any sort of other play if we divorse it from the context.In RC's example, the difference between the two theme building events is that in Narrativist play, the exploration of the theme was expressedly the goal of the play.  The group got together to explore that theme, and the goal of the play was for each character to examine there own thoughts and feelings about that theme and to partake of the shared story about that theme.  In theory, all the participants are conscious of what the theme is.  Whereas, in the simulationist example, the referee probably didn't create the conflict with the expressed goal of exploring the dramatic theme 'Do the ends justify the means?', but rather that theme evolved based on the conflicts chosen as realistic for the setting and the actions of the players - which probably were not directed toward creating that theme, but either exploring the game universe or 'winning' whatever conflict they were presented with.  None of the participants, including the referee, may be conscious of the theme at all in the simulationist case because exploring thier own feelings or creating a story may not be part of thier goals for play. On the other hand, IME, in really well realized simulationist play, eventually you get so absorbed into the universe and the events taking part in it that dramatic exploration becomes highly attractive regardless of what your initial intentions may have been.</blockquote>

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