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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 8775738" data-attributes="member: 7029588">I'm not saying I don't see some simularities and that there was some differentiation coming from fluff (as in any edition actually), but there were a lot more mechanical "permissions" than just ranged burst AOE.   Arcane, Divine, and Primal still had broader permissions than Martial.   Martial powers rarely had elemental or other damage types, no teleport, no summons, no shapechange, no creation of objects like walls, no ability to petrify, etc.   What 4e didn't do was gate most status effects to magic only and made the "combat magic" play within the same resolution rubrik as martial -- attack rolls, HP attrition, most status effects available to everyone, etc.   So there was a certain "sameness" there (although even in this level playing field magic did more).   And of course, a lot of the "high magic" was moved to rituals, an unfortunately neglected subsystem.    I suspect a low magic game in 4e would remove rituals, wheras a high magic game would make them easier to find and use.    By the end of 4e almost all the classic spells were in the game as rituals.   If 4e had started with all these rituals in the game, gave a few free rituals per day to the classic full casters as they leveled up, and put their "rituals per day" as a classic spell chart then perhaps things would have been different...I think the sameness feel for some comes from the fact that combat magic played on the same resolution rubric.    Yes, you can teleport but you can no longer teleport everyone out of the encounter.    Yes, you can shapechange but it gives you set stats that are within limits -- you can no longer scan all the monster manuals for something that is well outside any limits.   You have to play inside the encounter box for the most part.   We've seen the version where everyone plays on the same enounter based resolution system, and I'd definitely be curious to see the version where every class (even martials) plays on the traditional magic resolution system -- where some of your abililities operate on the traditional resolution mechanics but some just bypass them (just work, bypass action economy, bypass skill rolls, etc.).    And no, this would not have to involve giving spells to martials.</blockquote>

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