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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FourthBear" data-source="post: 4017135" data-attributes="member: 55846">Yes, and I feel sure that when the DMG (or Monster Manual) gives ranges for the various stats that make for an appropriate challenge at a certain level, they will be assuming that the final numbers include all relevant bonuses.  I believe that long term buffs will be going the way of the dodo, so for any real increases during a combat encounter are expected to come from the opponent's actions during the rounds of combat.  The important thing to remember is what a monster level doesn't mean.  It's doesn't mean in any way that the monster has equivalent abilities to a PC of a certain level.  It means that it would make for a challenging opponent (whether the context is combat, social or whatever).  A monster that has had class levels added is under no constraints to have to take the appropriate level of gear.  In fact, I don't think it would be very good design for it to gain all of the various non-class specific abilities in the class description.  If you generate a Fire Giant cleric, why should that cleric be automatically superior in combat to the other Fire Giants, as it would be in 4e?  The presumption is that the stats for a Fire Giant represent the training and experience and hereditary ability common to Fire Giants.  A Fire Giant cleric would presumably get that (or even possibly less) and the clerical training.  I would suggest that the preferred suggestion in most cases is to add level appropriate class abilities and not to add unwanted items or increases in stats.</blockquote>

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