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General Tabletop Discussion
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the dex warrior - why make a strength based one?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7161042" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Your 1) is a strawman. "Javelins exist, so there's not problem of ranged vs melee"? Really, that's an argument?</p><p></p><p>Your 2) is a strawman. Prone was discussed (as was full cover). Doesn't address anything, especially because it's still forcing the opponent to take actions to counter your strengths without you having to do anything. And, once in melee range where prone is bad, the ranged characters are still on par with the melee monsters.</p><p></p><p>Your 3) is a strawman. It's not about 1 or 2 DPR. That just shows that it's as good as melee in optimum for melee conditions -- ie, that the ranged character is on par with the greatsword fighter <em>in melee</em>. At range, the DPR difference is 100% as the melee guy can't hit but the ranged character can. That 1 to 2 DPR difference <em>in melee</em>, where the ranged character should be at a severe disadvantage, is actually a very, very strong argument that ranged combat is unbalanced, not a trivial difference to be easily dismissed.</p><p></p><p>You've shown that you've only given a superficial reading of the arguments against, but you've trivialized and dismissed them all as irrelevant. Then you go onto say that the people making those arguments are just dogmatic and unlikely to accept contrary arguments, which is exactly what you're doing. Hence the irony of it all.</p><p></p><p>As an aside, your advice to just not use feats as a solution is a) unhelpful in the extreme -- everyone already knows that feats are optional, and expecting them to work well isn't unfounded or outrageous; and b) not really a solution. Even without feats ranged combat is still very strong in 5e for many of the reasons already listed -- higher attack chance from Archery style; similar damage; ability still added to damage; and, finally, everything that accrues to range like not being attacked, never wasting attacks, etc. Ranged combat was buffed in 5e. Failing to see this is failing to understand how the system actually works.</p><p></p><p>Now, all of that said, it might not be something you care about, and that's fine. I, myself, don't care about it enough to do much more than slightly nerf sharpshooter, and that only in 1 game I've run (I offered the choice in another game, and, surprisingly, the player took the +1 DEX over the -5/+10; it helped her more at the time). So you don't have to care about the arguments, but you shouldn't handwave them away either. And don't offer the 'well, then, don't do that' as advice. No one here really needs to be told that they don't have to do something that doesn't work -- they're here to either dissect what's not working (me) for better understanding so they can reach a decision for their game, or they're looking for constructive advice on how to fix it for their games. Or their just looking to kvetch about it. But no one, not one, is suddenly relieved that you've solved their problem by informing them they don't <em>have </em>to use feats.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7161042, member: 16814"] Your 1) is a strawman. "Javelins exist, so there's not problem of ranged vs melee"? Really, that's an argument? Your 2) is a strawman. Prone was discussed (as was full cover). Doesn't address anything, especially because it's still forcing the opponent to take actions to counter your strengths without you having to do anything. And, once in melee range where prone is bad, the ranged characters are still on par with the melee monsters. Your 3) is a strawman. It's not about 1 or 2 DPR. That just shows that it's as good as melee in optimum for melee conditions -- ie, that the ranged character is on par with the greatsword fighter [I]in melee[/I]. At range, the DPR difference is 100% as the melee guy can't hit but the ranged character can. That 1 to 2 DPR difference [I]in melee[/I], where the ranged character should be at a severe disadvantage, is actually a very, very strong argument that ranged combat is unbalanced, not a trivial difference to be easily dismissed. You've shown that you've only given a superficial reading of the arguments against, but you've trivialized and dismissed them all as irrelevant. Then you go onto say that the people making those arguments are just dogmatic and unlikely to accept contrary arguments, which is exactly what you're doing. Hence the irony of it all. As an aside, your advice to just not use feats as a solution is a) unhelpful in the extreme -- everyone already knows that feats are optional, and expecting them to work well isn't unfounded or outrageous; and b) not really a solution. Even without feats ranged combat is still very strong in 5e for many of the reasons already listed -- higher attack chance from Archery style; similar damage; ability still added to damage; and, finally, everything that accrues to range like not being attacked, never wasting attacks, etc. Ranged combat was buffed in 5e. Failing to see this is failing to understand how the system actually works. Now, all of that said, it might not be something you care about, and that's fine. I, myself, don't care about it enough to do much more than slightly nerf sharpshooter, and that only in 1 game I've run (I offered the choice in another game, and, surprisingly, the player took the +1 DEX over the -5/+10; it helped her more at the time). So you don't have to care about the arguments, but you shouldn't handwave them away either. And don't offer the 'well, then, don't do that' as advice. No one here really needs to be told that they don't have to do something that doesn't work -- they're here to either dissect what's not working (me) for better understanding so they can reach a decision for their game, or they're looking for constructive advice on how to fix it for their games. Or their just looking to kvetch about it. But no one, not one, is suddenly relieved that you've solved their problem by informing them they don't [I]have [/I]to use feats. [/QUOTE]
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the dex warrior - why make a strength based one?
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