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<blockquote data-quote="MarkB" data-source="post: 5961407" data-attributes="member: 40176">I've seen a few examples of 4e Epic-scaled obstacles that didn't ring true - for instance, our last session, playing through one of the official WotC modules, featured an Epic pit trap whose depths were filled with a silvery mist. Rather than taking falling damage, a character entering the mist was teleported to a pocket plane which would attempt to 'eat' them by inflicting radiant damage until they escaped.However, this is hardly new stuff. I was seeing similar gimmicks in Epic-level play in 3.5e ages ago. As a for-instance, a temple we needed to explore used a random sprinkling of 'special' bricks in its walls, charged with Force barriers, anti-magic emanations or pockets of wild magic, specifically to foil intruders attempting to slip in ethereally. And I don't think we saw a single enemy stronghold that wasn't liberally sprinkled with anti-scry and anti-teleport defenses anywhere past the early teen levels.The fact is that, if characters really do reach levels where no wall or door can stop them, that pretty much eliminates dungeons of any sort as a challenge. That's half the core game concept gone. So, regardless of edition, module builders and DMs find ways to keep those game elements relevant, because they're too useful to abandon.The fact that 4e provided clear guidelines to help do so makes it somewhat more user-friendly in that regard, but it doesn't make it fundamentally different from the prior editions.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MarkB, post: 5961407, member: 40176"] I've seen a few examples of 4e Epic-scaled obstacles that didn't ring true - for instance, our last session, playing through one of the official WotC modules, featured an Epic pit trap whose depths were filled with a silvery mist. Rather than taking falling damage, a character entering the mist was teleported to a pocket plane which would attempt to 'eat' them by inflicting radiant damage until they escaped. However, this is hardly new stuff. I was seeing similar gimmicks in Epic-level play in 3.5e ages ago. As a for-instance, a temple we needed to explore used a random sprinkling of 'special' bricks in its walls, charged with Force barriers, anti-magic emanations or pockets of wild magic, specifically to foil intruders attempting to slip in ethereally. And I don't think we saw a single enemy stronghold that wasn't liberally sprinkled with anti-scry and anti-teleport defenses anywhere past the early teen levels. The fact is that, if characters really do reach levels where no wall or door can stop them, that pretty much eliminates dungeons of any sort as a challenge. That's half the core game concept gone. So, regardless of edition, module builders and DMs find ways to keep those game elements relevant, because they're too useful to abandon. The fact that 4e provided clear guidelines to help do so makes it somewhat more user-friendly in that regard, but it doesn't make it fundamentally different from the prior editions. [/QUOTE]

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