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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5964997" data-attributes="member: 87792">Not really.&nbsp; There's a significant difference between finding a tough on a street corner, waving gold in his face, and sticking him in plate armour, or buying a couple of burly slaves from the market and sticking them in plate armour (actual examples by my group) and looking for someone who has spent years apprenticed to a wizard.In the fighter replacement's case, their main job is to stand there.&nbsp; It's to be somewhere rather than to actively do something.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Why not?&nbsp;And that's getting through an adamantium door?&nbsp;&nbsp;Because dragons can fly?&nbsp; And would give people in the real world third degree burns?&nbsp; Also because the fighter is meant to be the toughest member of the party.&nbsp; You've already got hit points...&nbsp;The core problem is that if you're limiting fighters like that then what they can do becomes irrelevant with fourth level spells.&nbsp; I don't care if you are an olympic high and long jumper.&nbsp; Fly and levitate beat you.&nbsp; (You can just about limit rogues like that but that's another story).&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd think it very unlikely.&nbsp; Gandalf had what?&nbsp; Six?&nbsp; For the whole of Lord of the Rings.&nbsp; 13th Age caps out at I think 12 spells for an epic hero and at least one of those will be At Will.&nbsp;And I dispute that the fighter is much more likely to have a constitution bonus - and his constitution bonus is going to be a lower proportion of his hit points than that of the wizard if they both have one.&nbsp;&nbsp;1: That is an extremely edge case and railroad-captures are considered poor design for a reason.&nbsp;2:&nbsp; The Cleric's laughing.&nbsp; He waits for dawn and meditates and suddenly has a full loadout of spells.&nbsp; He then blasts the door off its hinges.&nbsp;The rogue might be able to pick the lock for himself and everyone else depending on the no-tools penalty.&nbsp;The fighter, if mundane, is stuffed.&nbsp; He can't batter down the door.&nbsp; He can't break the bars - he's not as strong as the ogres the cell was designed for.&nbsp; He can't pick the lock.&nbsp; And he can't magic his way out.&nbsp; He needs to wait for someone to open his cell door and put a weapon in his hand.&nbsp; (Or he can improvise - but so can everyone else.)&nbsp; Of course I believe that a high level fighter should be able to plait the bars of the cell then use them as an improvised spear and lever.&nbsp; But you don't.&nbsp;The high level wizard is fine.&nbsp; Hes uses his contingency spell to teleport out, sleeps the night, studys up, and comes back for everyone. A low level wizard depends whether he has a useful spell prepared like Charm Person (1st), Disguise Self (1st), Knock (2nd).&nbsp; &nbsp;Because if you have what the wizard can do to alter reality changing at high level then to be balanced the fighter needs to change qualitatively too.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Or 'I can escape and put a few hundred miles between me and this, rest up, and come back tomorrow knowing almost exactly what I'm facing'.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd impose it.&nbsp; But then I don't believe in D&amp;D style overnight recovery as being a good thing.&nbsp; In my current game you only heal surges at an extended rest - which is a few days in a (relatively) safe town.&nbsp; Where the cleric can pray three times a day and fast (or have a dionysian orgy depending on the God).&nbsp; And the wizard can spend a day or two setting up lab apparatus or communing with the infinite.&nbsp;&nbsp;3.X is the most extreme example.&nbsp; But literally every edition of D&amp;D gave wizards too many spells.&nbsp; 1e soft-caps (level 10) at about the time it starts getting silly.&nbsp; 2e gave an extra spell per spell level above the 1e level.&nbsp; And 3e gave a spell per spell level beyond that (2 at low level if you try).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5964997, member: 87792"] Not really. There's a significant difference between finding a tough on a street corner, waving gold in his face, and sticking him in plate armour, or buying a couple of burly slaves from the market and sticking them in plate armour (actual examples by my group) and looking for someone who has spent years apprenticed to a wizard. In the fighter replacement's case, their main job is to stand there. It's to be somewhere rather than to actively do something. Why not? And that's getting through an adamantium door? Because dragons can fly? And would give people in the real world third degree burns? Also because the fighter is meant to be the [I]toughest[/I] member of the party. You've already got hit points... The core problem is that if you're limiting fighters like that then what they can do becomes [I]irrelevant[/I] with fourth level spells. I don't care if you are an olympic high and long jumper. Fly and levitate beat you. (You can just about limit rogues like that but that's another story). I'd think it very unlikely. Gandalf had what? Six? For the whole of Lord of the Rings. 13th Age caps out at I think 12 spells for an epic hero and at least one of those will be At Will. And I dispute that the fighter is much more likely to have a constitution bonus - and his constitution bonus is going to be a lower proportion of his hit points than that of the wizard if they both have one. 1: That is an extremely edge case and railroad-captures are considered poor design for a reason. 2: The Cleric's laughing. He waits for dawn and meditates and suddenly has a full loadout of spells. He then blasts the door off its hinges. The rogue might be able to pick the lock for himself and everyone else depending on the no-tools penalty. The fighter, if mundane, is stuffed. He can't batter down the door. He can't break the bars - he's not as strong as the ogres the cell was designed for. He can't pick the lock. And he can't magic his way out. He needs to wait for someone to open his cell door and put a weapon in his hand. (Or he can improvise - but so can everyone else.) Of course I believe that a high level fighter should be able to plait the bars of the cell then use them as an improvised spear and lever. But you don't. The high level wizard is fine. Hes uses his contingency spell to teleport out, sleeps the night, studys up, and comes back for everyone. A low level wizard depends whether he has a useful spell prepared like Charm Person (1st), Disguise Self (1st), Knock (2nd). Because if you have what the wizard can do to alter reality changing at high level then to be balanced the fighter needs to change qualitatively too. Or 'I can escape and put a few hundred miles between me and this, rest up, and come back tomorrow knowing almost exactly what I'm facing'. I'd impose it. But then I don't believe in D&D style overnight recovery as being a good thing. In my current game you only heal surges at an extended rest - which is a few days in a (relatively) safe town. Where the cleric can pray three times a day and fast (or have a dionysian orgy depending on the God). And the wizard can spend a day or two setting up lab apparatus or communing with the infinite. 3.X is the most extreme example. But literally every edition of D&D gave wizards too many spells. 1e soft-caps (level 10) at about the time it starts getting silly. 2e gave an extra spell per spell level above the 1e level. And 3e gave a spell per spell level beyond that (2 at low level if you try). [/QUOTE]

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