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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5966765" data-attributes="member: 87792">The trouble is that the fighter never occupied a unique space, and pre-4e only occupied a genuinely valuable one with Weapon specialisation. The edition to unite the editions is probably going to stick to that - I've said repeatedly if they'd gone for weapon spec it would have been a lot better than what we got.  Which is an attempt at the traditional D&D system.  OK, reanswering. The Cleric is a D&Dism rather than an archetypal fantasy character. What I visualise the cleric doing is ... not being there. For more fantasy archetypes: Fighter:Low level: Break the door down or smash the hinges, taking time to do it. High level: Find a weak point in the wall and break that in about two kicks. (Barbarian, likewise). Thief: Low level: Pick the lock with the lockpick he hid from the searchers. High level: Pick the lock with his thumbnail or just by tapping it. Wizard: Low level: Mage hand to filch the keys or illusion to pretend he isn't in the cell. High level: ___??? I'm not even going to try to guess - anything from animating the entire castle to teleporting home depending on their specialty.  (An illusionist would do something like painting a door on the other wall and stepping through it while a telekenetic would rip the door off its hinges). Bard: Low level: Talk his way out of the cell and possibly the jailer into it or his way into the jailer's daughter's bed. High level (unless the low level would be funnier - always a consideration with Bards): tap the lock, find its resonant frequency, and then sing to break it in the way an opera singer can with a wineglass. Druid: Low level: Over a few hours grow a small tree in the doorframe, bursting the door. Or summon help via talking to animals and get one to filch the guards keys. High level: Flood the place in vines in seconds, bursting the doors and walls, summon help by talking to animals and getting an elephant (in Northern Europe), or turn into either a small animal and creep out or a big one and bust the door off its hinges. Ninja: Low level: Appear not to be there and then sneak out when someone comes to check. High level: Walk through the wall. Paladin:Low level: Wait. Justice will sort itself out.High level: Convert the jailer and have him start confessing his sins and asking for absolution.   I like a slight tweak to 4e. Everyone gets everything back together but only in a place of safety - a home city or base or fortified encampment. It's more than just sleeping for a night.  Hope the above helps.  It's a mix of high level and the fighter archetype. The fighter I do not see as mundane. It's the person strong and tough enough to stand toe to toe with ridiculour enemies. And mortal strength and toughness has a limit. If I want a mundane character, compensating for human frailty by his wits and skill, that is not a fighter. That's a thief (or possibly a ninja or bard). Justice League Batman isn't a fighter; he never goes toe to toe with anyone. Batman's closer to a rogue or assassin. The fighter on that team is Superman. (Plus a few others sometimes). In the Avengers movie, Thor's a fighter, so's the Hulk. Iron Man's gear dependent and is some sort of wizard. Black Widow and Hawkeye, the "ordinary" humans don't fight toe to toe. They don't fight the way a fighter does. They aren't fighters because a human fighter could not survive in that environment. Instead they are rogue-types using cover, stealth, mobility, and trickery.  No. I see that to fight giants toe to toe rather than through stealth and trickery you need to transcend human frailty. I see that surviving dragon breath through toughness (rather than getting out of the way) you have to transcend human frailty. To behave the way a fighter behaves against D&D foes you can not be an ordinary human. And you must know you are not - otherwise to go head to head with things is suicidal.  I don't. I see a non-magical high level human fighter would have become a corpse many levels back unless calling them non-magical was like calling Tony Stark an ordinary human and discounting his armour. Now if you want a non-magical human rogue, at high levels be my guest. A fast and lethal trickster who fights way above his supposed weight class by guileand cunning. And by never taking a direct hit from something that powerful. You just can't behave like a fighter against high level foes while being an ordinary human without being obliterated by colateral damage or casually flung into walls, picking up more concussions than a professional boxer.</blockquote>

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