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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5967989" data-attributes="member: 996">I think it is mostly versatility and peak power or 'plot power' - things like dailies, encounter powers, martial healing, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; And, there are more inherent contradictions in the resistance to fighter being complex or balanced or genre-appropriate than /just/ the 'double standard' I've been going on about.As you very cogently point out, any character that reaches high level has, by virtue of simple hps alone, a super-human ability to survive deadly dangers.&nbsp; By virtue of basic combat abilities (BAB or THAC0 or 1/2 level), they can out-fight ordinary people quite casually, and can stand up to improbably large and dangerous enemies.&nbsp; So the idea that PCs must be 'mundane' or 'not superhuman' or 'realistic' in what they can do without resorting to magic is really absurd on a basic level.&nbsp; Yet, that argument is advanced passionately when it comes to the fighter getting any sort of extraordinary genre-appropriate abilities.&nbsp; Conversely, the D&amp;D wizard is given vastly more 'spells' than any of his peers in the broader fantasy genre.The classic D&amp;D Vancian wizard can eventually learn almost unlimited numbers of spells, and can memorize and cast dozens of them at high levels.&nbsp; The whole memorization thing is not present anywhere in genre beyond the works of Jack Vance or D&amp;D-inspired fiction, and, in the Dying Earth, the very greatest wizards could memorize at most 10 spells, at risk to their sanity, mind you, and in that entire world there were perhaps a hundred or so spells to be uncovered.&nbsp; The broader fantasy genre, OTOH - from myth and legend, to fairy tales, to S&amp;S or High Fantasy - is full of great warriors slaying terrible monsters single-handed, fighting against whole armies until they stand atop a mountain of the slain, and doing feats of strength and valor far beyond any imaginable human limits.&nbsp; Yet the D&amp;D fighter is held to a bizarre genre-inappropriate standard of 'realism,' a standard that the game, itself, breaks, for every character who accumulates a large number of hps.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5967989, member: 996"] I think it is mostly versatility and peak power or 'plot power' - things like dailies, encounter powers, martial healing, etc. And, there are more inherent contradictions in the resistance to fighter being complex or balanced or genre-appropriate than /just/ the 'double standard' I've been going on about. As you very cogently point out, any character that reaches high level has, by virtue of simple hps alone, a super-human ability to survive deadly dangers. By virtue of basic combat abilities (BAB or THAC0 or 1/2 level), they can out-fight ordinary people quite casually, and can stand up to improbably large and dangerous enemies. So the idea that PCs must be 'mundane' or 'not superhuman' or 'realistic' in what they can do without resorting to magic is really absurd on a basic level. Yet, that argument is advanced passionately when it comes to the fighter getting any sort of extraordinary genre-appropriate abilities. Conversely, the D&D wizard is given vastly more 'spells' than any of his peers in the broader fantasy genre. The classic D&D Vancian wizard can eventually learn almost unlimited numbers of spells, and can memorize and cast dozens of them at high levels. The whole memorization thing is not present anywhere in genre beyond the works of Jack Vance or D&D-inspired fiction, and, in the Dying Earth, the very greatest wizards could memorize at most 10 spells, at risk to their sanity, mind you, and in that entire world there were perhaps a hundred or so spells to be uncovered. The broader fantasy genre, OTOH - from myth and legend, to fairy tales, to S&S or High Fantasy - is full of great warriors slaying terrible monsters single-handed, fighting against whole armies until they stand atop a mountain of the slain, and doing feats of strength and valor far beyond any imaginable human limits. Yet the D&D fighter is held to a bizarre genre-inappropriate standard of 'realism,' a standard that the game, itself, breaks, for every character who accumulates a large number of hps. [/QUOTE]

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