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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5968024" data-attributes="member: 87792">Complete and utter rubbish.&nbsp; The ability to hit two guys in the space of six seconds is not magic.&nbsp; It's just using your sword moderately well.&nbsp; And even the &quot;self-healing&quot; (never mind that it relies on Gygax's stated hit point definitions) is no more than action movie physics.What 4e did was brought the power of combat magic down to that of the fighter.(The only exception I can think of that might be seen as magic rather than skilled use of a sword is Come and Get It or its upgraded version Warrior's Urging.&nbsp; Oh, and the abilities that allow the Eladrin Knight, who can already teleport thanks to his race, to teleport that bit more.)It's versatility and active as opposed to passive power.&nbsp; The fighter is already supernaturally resilient.&nbsp; But ultimately the closest to an actively supernatural ability the 3.X fighter gets on the offence is the Spikey Chain Whirlwind.&nbsp; Or possibly Manyshot.&nbsp; A 20th level (pre-4e) fighter might be able to survive getting hit square in the chest by a cannon ball.&nbsp; But he still moves at the same speed he moved at at level 1, and attempts to introduce the enemy to the point of his blade by getting in arm's reach.&nbsp; He still defends himself with an AC almost entirely based on what he is wearing.What we want to see is the fighter's ability to engage to increase (it does a little in 4e but Epic 4e is ... disappointing).&nbsp; A fighter able to smash in a castle wall with a mace or create an earthquake that knocks the canon over before you ever reach it.&nbsp; To cut the top off a mountain.&nbsp; To 'salmon leap' across a ravine or onto the back of a flying dragon rather than trudging after it at 30' per action.&nbsp; Watch some anime or read some celtic myth and start from there.Oh, and the ability to simply cut or punch through walls of force and other such effects.&nbsp; If physical action can affect it, the high level fighter should be able to destroy it.&nbsp; Prismatic Sphere?&nbsp; Slice.&nbsp; Congratulations, wizard.&nbsp; You bought yourself a round to cast your teleportation spell.&nbsp; (Note that even with this, Prismatic Sphere is still a damn good spell - it neutralises both beasties and other wizards).Wizards may be subtle and powerful.&nbsp; But if the high level fighter and the wizard walk into the same arena, there should be absolutely no doubt as to the outcome.&nbsp; The fighter beats any wizard stupid enough to find himself in that position.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5968024, member: 87792"] Complete and utter rubbish. The ability to hit two guys in the space of six seconds is not magic. It's just using your sword moderately well. And even the "self-healing" (never mind that it relies on Gygax's stated hit point definitions) is no more than action movie physics. What 4e did was brought the power of combat magic down to that of the fighter. (The only exception I can think of that might be seen as magic rather than skilled use of a sword is [B]Come and Get It[/B] or its upgraded version [B]Warrior's Urging[/B]. Oh, and the abilities that allow the Eladrin Knight, who can already teleport thanks to his race, to teleport that bit more.) It's versatility and active as opposed to passive power. The fighter is already supernaturally resilient. But ultimately the closest to an actively supernatural ability the 3.X fighter gets on the offence is the Spikey Chain Whirlwind. Or possibly Manyshot. A 20th level (pre-4e) fighter might be able to survive getting hit square in the chest by a cannon ball. But he still moves at the same speed he moved at at level 1, and attempts to introduce the enemy to the point of his blade by getting in arm's reach. He still defends himself with an AC almost entirely based on what he is wearing. What we want to see is the fighter's ability to engage to increase (it does a little in 4e but Epic 4e is ... disappointing). A fighter able to smash in a castle wall with a mace or create an earthquake that knocks the canon over before you ever reach it. To cut the top off a mountain. To 'salmon leap' across a ravine or onto the back of a flying dragon rather than trudging after it at 30' per action. Watch some anime or read some celtic myth and start from there. Oh, and the ability to simply cut or punch through walls of force and other such effects. If physical action can affect it, the high level fighter should be able to destroy it. Prismatic Sphere? [i]Slice[/i]. Congratulations, wizard. You bought yourself a round to cast your teleportation spell. (Note that even with this, Prismatic Sphere is still a damn good spell - it neutralises both beasties and other wizards). Wizards may be subtle and powerful. But if the high level fighter and the wizard walk into the same arena, there should be absolutely no doubt as to the outcome. The fighter beats any wizard stupid enough to find himself in that position. [/QUOTE]

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