Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5968892" data-attributes="member: 87792">To me it speaks to the idea that "Magical" isn't by itself a meaningful category. Arcane spells are. Divine prayers are. "Magic" itself isn't. It's just the way the fantasy world works.  Given the answer to "the effects he can use magic for" at high level, that seems to be anything.  And as Umbran says above, this is not an interesting limit for anyone else.Tell me one wizard is limited to illusions.  Another one to evocation.  (Together they can create a nastily convincing dragon).  Make the wizard's limits actually genuinely meaningful.  They barely were in 1e.  And then 2e folded the Illusionist into the wizard, and 3.0 broke any semblance of control on them - which 3.5 failed to pay more than lip service to correcting.  (OK, so they hit haste and a few others - that's just getting the worst symptoms.) "Can cast spells" is not a limitation.  Can cast spells is an excuse to be able to do anything.  "Can cast illusion spells" is a meaningful limitation.  Why do you want to deny gonzo players their fun? I'd rather restrict gonzo mountain-throwers to epic. But that doesn't mean I want to push them out entirely.  You mean he's about equal to a low level bard with a reputation?  My rule of thumb would start with the following based on the two archetypes: <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The fighter should be a strong and tough juggernaut who is nearly unstoppable just as the wizard is tricksy and versatile.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If a fighter and a wizard have an arena duel the duel should be over if the fighter catches up with the wizard. No significant need to roll.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">A wizard should not be able to one-shot a fighter of equal level in any way, shape, or form. (This doesn't mean no save-or-dies necessarily - a wizard vs wizard arena duel can quite happily end in SoD - the fighter's going to one shot the wizard anyway).</li> </ol>Then we get to level scaling. <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If the wizard is five levels higher the fighter shouldn't stand a chance unless the wizard screws up or gets incredibly unlucky. The wizard can stay out of reach (e.g. flight + invisibility) and can quite probably throw a successful save or lose at the fighter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If the fighter is five levels higher, the wizard shouldn't stand a chance unless the fighter screws up or gets tricked by something beyond the caster's power (e.g. tricked into running off a cliff or into a portal the wizard couldn't himself create).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If the fighter and wizard are of equal level the fighter should have a chance to overcome the wizard's defences before the wizard can trap him.</li> </ol>Point 1 of the head to head matches should be obvious. Point 2 means that if the wizard gets Expeditious Retreat at level 1, the fighter should be able to run him down anyway at level 6. If the wizard gets invisibility at level 3, the fighter should be able to hear him at level 8. If the wizard can fly at level 5, the fighter should be able to take a flying leap at level 10 and knock him out of the air. If the wizard can drop a wall of stone in the way at level 7, the fighter should be able to smash it and keep moving at level 12. Outmatched by 5 levels either way should be brown underwear time. Point 3 is subtler. If the wizard can create a pit trap under the fighter with a standard action the fighter of the same level should be able to scramble out of a pit trap that deep with a standard action. If the wizard can cast a wall of force, the fighter should have a chance to be able to leap a wall that high. Remember that the wizard doesn't want to cast a pure offensive spell - the fighter will survive it and then get a free shot at the wizard (which means the wizard loses). In order to win the wizard has to either (a) wear the fighter down without making a mistake (and yes, he has enough spells to do this) or (b) use the environment - tricking the fighter under an overhang and then using a wall to seal him in for instance - or maneuvering him back the wrong side of a wall the wizard created earlier so you get some actual attack spells in unanswered.   So yes, I want the fighter to be supernatural. It's the whole archetype - incredibly strong and tough that no one can stop. Human-only and can still hang with the big boys should be the rogue. Trickery and cunning to box above your weight. Not brute strength to wrestle a dragon.</blockquote>

Verification