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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The double standard for magical and mundane abilities
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6355778" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I'm confused.</p><p></p><p>I referred to "a game based on fiction and genre first, with the mechanics subordinate to that ". And now you're telling me that "a game [in which the] mechanics are subordinate to the setting and the situation" is something radically different? It looks to me like its synomymous.</p><p></p><p>We both refer to the mechanics being subordinate to something - so no difference there.</p><p></p><p>I have described the thing to which the mechanics are subordinate as "fiction and genre". You have described it as "setting and situation". I don't see how these are different - what is the fiction, after all, other than "setting and situation"? What do you think is at stake in contrasting "setting and situation" - both imagined things, containing fictional elements - with "fiction and genre" - which denotes an assemblage of imagined things conceived of through a certain genre lense?</p><p></p><p>Also, I refer you to this <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?356436-The-Last-Pilgrimmage" target="_blank">PbP thread, of the DungeonWorld game I am currently playing</a>. Can you please explain how this is <em>not</em> playing a game? If you can't, then can you please stop misdescribing the activity of other roleplayers - it's needlessly rude.</p><p></p><p>It just baffles me that you can't see that this is hugely contentious.</p><p></p><p>When I look at Gygax's AD&D, I see a game full of fortune-in-the-middle mechanics: initiative and action economy in combat; hit points; saving throws. Plus metagame devices to regulate PC building and advancement: classes, levels, XP-for-gold. Except for class and level, I think, Gygax <em>expressly</em> calls these out as mechanics that are not meant to model ingame causal processes, but are imposed on the game from the "outside" so as to make for a fun game.</p><p></p><p>In a Dragon magazine article (I don't have the cite, but it's been frequenlty posted on this forum) he explained that the rationale for the spell system was game balance: ie it was also about game play, rather than faithfully modelling an ingame "reality".</p><p></p><p>4e doesn't change any of these features of the game. In the case of hit points, it builds on the FitM character of hp as described by Gygax. In the case of action economy, it introduces more interrupts and reactions to produce a resut that is closer to continuous motion, while preserving a FitM action economy. In the case of PC build, it preserves the use of class and level as devics for facilitating game play, while also further developing unifying tendencies in 3E (eg uniform XP chart).</p><p></p><p>The biggest changes in class build are: (i) no rolling for hit points (I think 3E already made provision for this, didn't it?); (ii) higher hit points at 1st level (not unlike Hackmaster); (iii) wizards and clerics have much-circumscribed spell lists; (iv) martial characters all have rationed abilities.</p><p></p><p>AD&D had rationed martial abilities too - eg no more than 1 try ever to BB/LG, no more than 1 try per level to open a lock, etc. But they weren't rationed on a per-time basis. But 3E did have examples of per-time rationing, eg in Sword & Fist there was some feat or prestige class ability that allowed a more powerful charge N times per day; and the Stunning Fist allowed the ability to be used N times per day; and these were both martial, not magical abilities).</p><p></p><p>None of these was an "upstart idea" except perhaps for the restrictions on caster spell lists.</p><p></p><p>And it opened up avenues of play that other editions had encouraged in their guidelines but had tended to block with their mechanics.</p><p></p><p>Are you serious? WotC is a commercial publisher. It set out to publish books that it hoped to sell. Do you really think that they would have stopped publishing 3E if they hadn't concluded it wasn't making enough money for them?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6355778, member: 42582"] I'm confused. I referred to "a game based on fiction and genre first, with the mechanics subordinate to that ". And now you're telling me that "a game [in which the] mechanics are subordinate to the setting and the situation" is something radically different? It looks to me like its synomymous. We both refer to the mechanics being subordinate to something - so no difference there. I have described the thing to which the mechanics are subordinate as "fiction and genre". You have described it as "setting and situation". I don't see how these are different - what is the fiction, after all, other than "setting and situation"? What do you think is at stake in contrasting "setting and situation" - both imagined things, containing fictional elements - with "fiction and genre" - which denotes an assemblage of imagined things conceived of through a certain genre lense? Also, I refer you to this [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?356436-The-Last-Pilgrimmage]PbP thread, of the DungeonWorld game I am currently playing[/url]. Can you please explain how this is [I]not[/I] playing a game? If you can't, then can you please stop misdescribing the activity of other roleplayers - it's needlessly rude. It just baffles me that you can't see that this is hugely contentious. When I look at Gygax's AD&D, I see a game full of fortune-in-the-middle mechanics: initiative and action economy in combat; hit points; saving throws. Plus metagame devices to regulate PC building and advancement: classes, levels, XP-for-gold. Except for class and level, I think, Gygax [I]expressly[/I] calls these out as mechanics that are not meant to model ingame causal processes, but are imposed on the game from the "outside" so as to make for a fun game. In a Dragon magazine article (I don't have the cite, but it's been frequenlty posted on this forum) he explained that the rationale for the spell system was game balance: ie it was also about game play, rather than faithfully modelling an ingame "reality". 4e doesn't change any of these features of the game. In the case of hit points, it builds on the FitM character of hp as described by Gygax. In the case of action economy, it introduces more interrupts and reactions to produce a resut that is closer to continuous motion, while preserving a FitM action economy. In the case of PC build, it preserves the use of class and level as devics for facilitating game play, while also further developing unifying tendencies in 3E (eg uniform XP chart). The biggest changes in class build are: (i) no rolling for hit points (I think 3E already made provision for this, didn't it?); (ii) higher hit points at 1st level (not unlike Hackmaster); (iii) wizards and clerics have much-circumscribed spell lists; (iv) martial characters all have rationed abilities. AD&D had rationed martial abilities too - eg no more than 1 try ever to BB/LG, no more than 1 try per level to open a lock, etc. But they weren't rationed on a per-time basis. But 3E did have examples of per-time rationing, eg in Sword & Fist there was some feat or prestige class ability that allowed a more powerful charge N times per day; and the Stunning Fist allowed the ability to be used N times per day; and these were both martial, not magical abilities). None of these was an "upstart idea" except perhaps for the restrictions on caster spell lists. And it opened up avenues of play that other editions had encouraged in their guidelines but had tended to block with their mechanics. Are you serious? WotC is a commercial publisher. It set out to publish books that it hoped to sell. Do you really think that they would have stopped publishing 3E if they hadn't concluded it wasn't making enough money for them? [/QUOTE]
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