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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4565300" data-attributes="member: 40961">The basic problem I have with non combat shifting is this- Lets say we want to let a druid turn into a songbird.  What's that worth? Well, as a songbird, he is small.  That means he can fit into small places a normal pc cannot go.  He is also hard to notice, purely because he is small, and additionally because in many environments he looks like an unthreatening animal.  I imagine it would be pretty hard to shoot a songbird or hit it with an ax, so there's benefits there.   What disadvantages does it have?  Well, none, really, because he can always stop being a songbird if he needs to do something a songbird can't.  Unless that's not the case (special ritual rules?), but generally, this is the sort of thing you terminate at will. So what should we assign as a cost to this suite of abilities?  Stealth, camouflage, flight, and tiny size when needed?  The steath is going to be better than an equivalently stealthy human being (because the Druid can train in stealth AND turn into a bird, making him doubly stealthy), the camouflage is unavailable to other PCs, the Flight is maybe epic tier in quality (below epic flight has short duration, but this flight isn't really combat compatible, so maybe it should be reduced to just paragon in quality).  The ability to shrink is probably equal to the ability to teleport, so at least that's easily priced. So in total, turning into a songbird seems to be worth at LEAST two feats (training or skill focus in stealth and bluff), one racial power (eladrin teleport), and one paragon level mobility boost (flight). That is HUGE. And that's the basic problem with non combat shifting.  Fans of it are going to want to be able to do more than just turn into a songbird, too- meaning that the problem compounds. Its why I favor a single, customizable form for shifters.  It at least keeps things under control, and since there's a single form, abilities for it can be priced the same as abilities for a PC.  If you want your beastform to be stealthy, you can make that cost about the same as making YOU stealthy.</blockquote>

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