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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6358209" data-attributes="member: 87792">From memory both of you play Gygaxian D&amp;D (i.e. OSR or heavily influenced by oD&amp;D, bD&amp;D, or 1E).&nbsp; Gygaxian D&amp;D does not need a fail forward mechanic because it has an inherent consequence to failure.&nbsp; Gygaxian D&amp;D is a timed game - every ten minutes you take you make a wandering monster check.&nbsp; So if failure costs time then it is always something bad, as opposed to something simply not happening.&nbsp; Gygaxian D&amp;D is hardly the only game with no need for a fail forward mechanic - the Cortex Plus System, any Powered by the Apocalypse game, Dread, and the Dying Earth all spring to mind.For a game that should have Fail Forward guidance, let's take a hypothetical game called GURPS: the Fudge d20.&nbsp; (Not being terribly subtle pointing out systems to start looking at - there are plenty of others, including most process-sim systems).&nbsp; In GURPS: the Fudge d20, you have a skill for lockpicking.&nbsp; If you fail a lockpicking check, you fail to open the lock.&nbsp; Which means if you are not under immediate time pressure and do not critically fail (if indeed there are crit mechanics) you've failed to open the lock - but you can take a few seconds to steady your nerves and try again.&nbsp; Failure has no consequences other than taking more time - and if time isn't critical, who cares?&nbsp; In GURPS: the Fudge d20 there is even a <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking20" target="_blank">Take 20</a> rule which says that with enough time you need never fail a repeatable skill check.&nbsp; Failure of a repeatable skill check has literally no consequence unless you are specifically under time pressure. Fail Forward explicitly denies this.&nbsp; There is always a negative consequence for failure under Fail Forward.&nbsp; You can never just repeat the roll until you get it right.And the thing to remember is that forward isn't necessarily the direction you want to go - merely the direction you are going.&nbsp; Forward towards a cliff is often a bad idea - and if you fail to jump a pit, falling into the pit is failing forward because the situation has changed due to your failure.&nbsp; Your options at the bottom of the pit are different from your options at the top of the pit.&nbsp; The situation has moved forward.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6358209, member: 87792"] From memory both of you play Gygaxian D&D (i.e. OSR or heavily influenced by oD&D, bD&D, or 1E). Gygaxian D&D does not need a fail forward mechanic because it has an inherent consequence to failure. Gygaxian D&D is a timed game - every ten minutes you take you make a wandering monster check. So if failure costs time then it is always something bad, as opposed to something simply not happening. Gygaxian D&D is hardly the only game with no need for a fail forward mechanic - the Cortex Plus System, any Powered by the Apocalypse game, Dread, and the Dying Earth all spring to mind. For a game that should have Fail Forward guidance, let's take a hypothetical game called GURPS: the Fudge d20. (Not being terribly subtle pointing out systems to start looking at - there are plenty of others, including most process-sim systems). In GURPS: the Fudge d20, you have a skill for lockpicking. If you fail a lockpicking check, you fail to open the lock. Which means if you are not under immediate time pressure and do not critically fail (if indeed there are crit mechanics) you've failed to open the lock - but you can take a few seconds to steady your nerves and try again. Failure has no consequences other than taking more time - and if time isn't critical, who cares? In GURPS: the Fudge d20 there is even a [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking20"]Take 20[/URL] rule which says that with enough time you need never fail a repeatable skill check. Failure of a repeatable skill check has literally no consequence unless you are specifically under time pressure. Fail Forward explicitly denies this. There is [I]always[/I] a negative consequence for failure under Fail Forward. You can never just repeat the roll until you get it right. And the thing to remember is that forward isn't necessarily the direction you want to go - merely the direction you [I]are[/I] going. Forward towards a cliff is often a bad idea - and if you fail to jump a pit, falling into the pit is failing forward [I]because the situation has changed due to your failure[/I]. Your options at the bottom of the pit are different from your options at the top of the pit. The situation has moved forward. [/QUOTE]

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