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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6358764" data-attributes="member: 87792">That's because your point here is irrelevant.&nbsp; Not all wandering monsters are fought.&nbsp; Not all wandering monsters are lost opportunities for loot.&nbsp; You can negotiate with some, you can scare some, you can even trade information with some.&nbsp; But all wandering monsters are a complication.&nbsp; All wandering monsters, if not dealt with make the whole thing harder - even if all they do is run away screaming (and by doing so alert all the other monsters in the dungeon).It's also boring.It's also dangerous in a way oD&amp;D never considers and for exactly the same reason.&nbsp; oD&amp;D has hit points - a third level PC can be pounded on by an orc with an axe for a full minute with the orc doing as well as they possibly can and not go down.And such games exist within the Storygames family.&nbsp; Montsegur 1244, Dread, Grey Ranks.That's because Gygaxian D&amp;D has precisely two conditions.&nbsp; Alive and dead.&nbsp; And if you are dead you can roll up another character in five minutes flat and be back into the game.&nbsp; Darkness isn't binary, it's having to live with the consequences.In short under your metrics in Gygaxian D&amp;D, if you have a ring of feather falling you have not been punished at all for the failure.&nbsp; With a retriable skill like picking locks you haven't been punished at all for failing to pick the lock.&nbsp; The really important point is aways &quot;What do you do now?&quot;On this we agree.Indy fails at just about everything he sets out to do.&nbsp; He loses the ark, he loses Marian, and despite his spectacular efforts he fails to get them back.&nbsp; Indeed at the climax of the film he's captured, tied up, and the Nazis have the ark.&nbsp; And the only way he gets out of that one is by working out the near literal deus ex machina.&nbsp; His &quot;minor victories&quot; are just exactly the sort of minor victories that allow Fail Forward to work - just enough to keep him going rather than stop him cold.If you accept Raiders of the Lost Ark as Fail Forward, as I think you do from your response, does this mean that you accept that you can add this to the list of genres that Fail Forward fits?The two dominant games of the 90s (2E and oWoD) having playstyles that they are utterly unfit for.&nbsp; And one of them blaming the players and writing screeds about &quot;Rollplaying not roleplaying&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6358764, member: 87792"] That's because your point here is irrelevant. Not all wandering monsters are fought. Not all wandering monsters are lost opportunities for loot. You can negotiate with some, you can scare some, you can even trade information with some. But all wandering monsters are [I]a complication[/I]. All wandering monsters, if not dealt with make the whole thing harder - even if all they do is run away screaming (and by doing so alert all the other monsters in the dungeon). It's also [I]boring[/I]. It's also dangerous in a way [I]oD&D[/I] never considers and for exactly the same reason. oD&D has hit points - a third level PC can be pounded on by an orc with an axe for a full minute with the orc doing as well as they possibly can and not go down. And such games exist within the Storygames family. Montsegur 1244, Dread, Grey Ranks. That's because Gygaxian D&D has precisely two conditions. Alive and dead. And if you are dead you can roll up another character in five minutes flat and be back into the game. Darkness isn't binary, it's having to live with the consequences. In short under your metrics in Gygaxian D&D, if you have a ring of feather falling [I]you have not been punished at all for the failure[/I]. With a retriable skill like picking locks you haven't been punished at all for failing to pick the lock. The really important point is aways "What do you do now?" On this we agree. Indy fails at just about everything he sets out to do. He loses the ark, he loses Marian, and despite his spectacular efforts [I]he fails to get them back[/I]. Indeed at the climax of the film he's captured, tied up, and the Nazis have the ark. And the only way he gets out of that one is by working out the near literal deus ex machina. His "minor victories" are just exactly the sort of minor victories that allow Fail Forward to work - just enough to keep him going rather than stop him cold. If you accept Raiders of the Lost Ark as Fail Forward, as I think you do from your response, does this mean that you accept that you can add this to the list of genres that Fail Forward fits? The two dominant games of the 90s (2E and oWoD) having playstyles that they are utterly unfit for. And one of them blaming the players and writing screeds about "Rollplaying not roleplaying". [/QUOTE]

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