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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DarrenGMiller" data-source="post: 1971287" data-attributes="member: 23174">As an "old schooler" myself, I am going to take a whack at this problem. I want for us to be able to "give you your game back" but I doubt it is going to happen exactly that way. Whay do I say this? Because I have been there before... several times... even recently (there is a thread here somewhere). It turned the hobby I love into a chore. DISCLAIMER:  From here on out, I am not going to humor you or "pull any punches."  Some of what I have to say might hurt and seem unfair.  I am attempting to help (as requested) and do not intend to coddle.  If you want this situation resolved, you are going to have to make some tough choices. A gaming group is a complex set of interwoven relationships. Everybody comes to the table for their own reasons and your job is to make sure they all get out of the game that which will make them enjoy the game the most. Or is it? At any rate, let me address some of the specifics of your post:   I have been on the receiving end of that myself.  The second guessing may just be human nature, but the way it is being handled...   I identify with this too, since I am in my early (or is it now mid) 30's.  Our group is part 30-somethings and part 18-20 age group.  The younger players seem much more accepting of the DM's rulings (that's me BTW) and the older folks are more skeptical and jaded.  They tend to try to interpret the rules in a way that will most benefit their character.  Yes, it requires a time investment, but does give a huge return on that investment (as has already been pointed out).  If it is so thankless, then why have you been doing it for so long?  First of all, if you find no joy in it, then stop now.  If you enjoy it when the game goes well, then admit it and stop playing "sour grapes."  I do NOT know it is a thankless job, or I would have given up long ago.  It only seems that way when the relationships at the table have become "dysunfctional" (I hate that word, but they are truly no longer functioning beneficially for anyone, like it or not)   You are assuming that they are not?  That is no problem, especially since you run a narrative style game.  However, it sounds like they have different assumptions than you about the kind of game they are playing in.  I wonder if you have clarified that for them.   Sounds like you need to confront the basic assumption of what kind of game you are all playing.  I am wondering if you were once a mechanics DM with these players in an older version of the game and have switched to narrative as you matured.   Have you discussed your style preferences with your players?  It REALLY sounds like the kind of game they want is not the kind of game you want and they are attempting to make you give them the kind of game they want, one way or another.  Hey, I do really understand.  I like to avoid conflict with my players until it MUST be dealt with or the game will fall apart.  I am determined to change my ways though.  It sounds like you are at this point.   No.   Also, No.  It NEVER works for the players to metagame continuously (or seemingly sontinuously) and it does not work to solve it in game.   This only treats the symptoms and not the disease.  It doesn't work and it makes them resent your game more and become more determined to derail it.  As I stated, I have been through this before.   This is the equivalent of hiding the medicine inside something they will swallow, only to have them spit it up when they discover they have been duped.  It is not necessary.  You should not and don't have to do this.   At the beginning of a session is too late.  At the beginning of the campaign.  If they don't trust you to run the game, they should find a new game.  More on that later.   Okay, this is the one that really caught me.  Either it is a rule or it isn't.  There is no degree of enforcement.  If a mechanics argument arises, stop it.  Restate the rule (that they have all presumably agreed on, since they are adults?) and declare said argument tabled.  If it continues, end the session.  They will not notice as you quietly start packing your stuff until you fold up the screen or whatever, then they will wonder what is going on.  They will start asking at some point.  Tell them you have to go.  In no way further the argument.  Do NOT even address its validity.  Remove yourself.  When you walk out, they will be shocked, then angry, but they will eventually discover the reason you left.  They will either be more careful or need a new DM.   I am not a mechanics-nut (rules lawyer), but I believe characters do have a chance, since in 3.5E, they are technically aware from all sides.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.   It is more than totally out of hand.  It is inexcusable.  Even more inexcusable is you hanging around to tolerate more of it.  The point at which my players resort to blatant verbal abuse is the point at which I say, "Game over" and walk out of the door. Now we get to the crux of the matter.  LilMissKittyn is attempting to address it from the same point of view that you are trying to address it and that is "in-game."  There are no table rules, rules of order, house rules, or rules of any kind that are going to solve this problem.  This needs to be addressed outside of a regular gaming session.  Might I suggest (GASP!) not gaming until it is resolved to your satisfaction (and theirs).  If this is not fixed, it will only progress to the point that you and/or they will walk away from gaming and not come back. This is not "their problem" or "your problem" (as DM) it is the problem of everyone at the table.  There seems to be several problems that need to be addressed.  These include: 1.  Lack of a shared vision of what the game should be like.  Is it story or is it mechanic?  These are two very distinct styles and a recent Monte Cook article helped me decide that this was a major problem in my game.  I (and one or two players) were expecting one type of game and the rest of the players expected (or wanted) something else.  I (we) tried to "legislate it" with table rules, etc. but had the same problem you are having.  I realized that I was running the style of game I was running to satisfy a very small percentage of players.  I switched over to an "old school" game and left the narrative approach behind.  The majority are extremely happy and I am happy as well (this is how it was when I first started playing after all).  The role-playing has never been better and we are not trying to manufacture the environment, instead, it is being spontaneously created. 2.  An avoidance of conflict is present.  This is a tough one.  If a player is an a$$ to you or others at the table, then solve it.  Either remove the player, resolve the situation through conversation, etc. or whatever.  This is NOT easy.  The situation needs to be addressed though.  It is never fun to remove someone you have been gaming with for a long time and it makes that person unhappy/angry/resentful, etc.  Realize that they are not really having fun in the session, they are just fulfilling a "fix" and going through the motions. 3.  I always hated it when I asked for suggestions about player problems and the first response was to either remove players from the group or find a new group.  Neither is easy andI though it could be done another way (like solving it in-game)  There is a reason why people respond with this solution right away.  First, let me say that removing a player or dissolving a group should be done with care and tact.  These are committed relationships that you are destroying.  I have been with one of my players through most of his marriage, the births of both of his children and all of his troubles and travails since.  A few years ago, we removed him from the game for a few months (and we didn't do it the correct way).  Terminiating these relationships is a painful thing for all parties involved.  Sometimes it is the only way to fix the problems with the game.  If the friendship is more valuable, then change the game... or stop gaming for a while until you all sort things out. I am sorry to be overly harsh, but drastic times call for drastic measures.  Later, you will only regret what you haven't tried.  Do not allow the verbal abuse to escalate or become physical. I wish you the best.  I am here to do what I can to help you.  We are fraternite. DM My apologies for any and all grammatical or typographical errors.</blockquote>

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