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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sanzuo" data-source="post: 4326335" data-attributes="member: 66180">I guess I'll repeat what I've said before, but I'll go more in depth this time.My history with D&D began in AD&D in the beginning of high school.  At the time, the idea was so novel I couldn't help but have fun as long as I was included in the game.  Our games at that time consisted of "random wacky magical adventures" with at least one or two random character deaths per session.  It was great fun.Then something happened and I began to familiarize myself with the rules and also concepts like "optimization."  This was also about the time 3rd edition came around and I started tentatively DMing, forcing me to learn many more rules.  The first few games I ran were terrible and I fell into the horrible habits of narrative-style DMing like leading the players by the nose, npc self-inserts and just storytelling without any player input.  It was strangely fun for me to tell a story but I soon realized it was not fun for the players to just sit listen to me talk, so I took a different approach.My first "successful" game lasted well over a year.  It was 3.0 edition and very much more "simulationist" style.  I just threw the players down literally in the middle of nowhere and let them go hog wild, making sure to throw obstacles in their way when the game looked like it was about to get boring.The "sequel" campaign was very similar, only better! We had memorable characters; especially Kregous the half-orc who became a legendary warrior/druid/woodcarver with odious personal habits/hygiene and a charming flying booger companion.These campaigns mostly consisted of the players visiting different landmarks on my updated-by-session world map and kicking the crap out of anything that got in their way.  I don't even remember what the overall plot was or even if there was one.  I think it revolved around the character's personal aspirations (ruling the universe, et al) and this eventually became a point of contention when certain players hogged all the screen time and it drove away others in the process.I'll get to my point in a second here...I think it was around this time I was beginning to feel disillusioned with the game in general because it seemed overall like one combat encounter after another catering to the player's selfish desires for phat lootz, with hardly any time left for real plot or character development.  I realize this is not a unique complaint.  Today I'm still not sure what I really wanted out of the game.My revelation hit me actually not long ago when I realized: "Hey, it's SUPPOSED to be like this!"  D&D really began its life as a tactical miniatures war game with more complex rules reduced to personal scale.  It's like that to anyone who plays a game of Warhammer.  Nothing matters beyond the scale of the encounter.  Anything extra like rhyme or reason is just fluff.Suddenly I enjoyed the game a lot more.  I once thought of combat as an unpleasant interruption to the narrative of the game.  Now I see it as an anticipation of the inevitable combat encounter, that is flavored with style and narrative.  In other words, I accepted D&D for what it is.  It is a tactical fighting game with roleplaying elements.Once this became clear to me I adjusted my line of thinking was happy to play this game and became even more delighted when plot and flavor would leak into the game.  I think I still have a more narrative style, but I understand what my players expect.  They want to kill things and get rich doing it.4th edition to me has taken this core concept and streamlined it.  I fully believe that with each new supplement that gets released it will gradually become just as power-gamey as 3.x ever was.  It'll just be slightly easier for me to keep up.As far as my desire for a much more narrative style game with little to no combat... well, there are other systems out there to try.  All with their own style.My argument is simply this: D&D is and always has been a game based around fighting.  You can add as much or as little role playing or narrative as you like based on your players style, but the core mechanic has not changed since its origins.  If you want a more story-centric system, pick a different game.</blockquote>

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