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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steverooo" data-source="post: 2822850" data-attributes="member: 9410">If I Ruled The World...You're certainly not alone, (Jolly?) Gold Roger!  I, too, have always hated the so-called "Prestige" Classes, and don't allow any of them in my games, when I GM, except for the ones in the DMG (and I don't believe that anyone has ever taken any of them).  I have always felt that the PC Classes should be prestigious, and at least as good as the PrCs...  Sadly, they are NOT.If I rewrote D&D, I would keep PrCs, but change them.  The requirements would be stat-based, Feats (and hence the stats), and skill levels.  Feats would not be stupid stuff like "Skill Focus: Craft (Alchemy)", which can just be a requirement of so many ranks, but something reasonably required by the PrC.  Joining would also ALWAYS require tests and/or quests, and doing whatever was required to become a member...  Becoming a Knight of the Horn, for instance, would require a certain level of fighting ability (BAB), armor, shield, and weapons use, and that the PC have aided Verbobonc/Furyondy in some significant way, and be sponsored by someone already a member who was willing to vouch for the PC.  Becoming an Immortal Alchemist would require some ranks in Alchemy, and that the PC locate an existing member, and somehow obtain information to aid them in becoming immortal (which is entirely campaign-based, and GM-controlled).As for Feats, this I would change, altogether.  I would rule out the first levels of classes (as Fighters get three armor proficiencies, two shield proficiencies, Simple Weapons Proficiencies, and one Martial Weapons Proficiency for EVERY Martial Weapon in the PHB I!), and then add up all the special abilities that any PC class gets...  IIRC, I don't think that any class gets more than five (I could be wrong).  Anyway, whatever that amount is, that would become the upper limit (note here that this refers to NEW abilities, only, not to +1D6 Sneak Attack, or a new Favored Enemy, or otherwise improving an already-existing capability -- some definition needs to be done, here... is Improved Uncanny Dodge or the different types of Bardic Music a "New" ability?  I say "Yes!").  Anyway, whatever that number is, that would set the upper limit of character abilities.  Let's assume that that number is FOUR, for the sake of arguement...  I would still allow the one Feat/3 levels, as normal.I would then say that FOUR abilities per level is all that ANY PC could get, unless earned through skill advancement (I'll get to that, later).  That includes character class abilities, Fighter Bonus Feats, Rogue Extraordinary Abilities, and Prestige Class abilities...Now with an upper limit set, most first level PCs won't get much, besides their first level feat, and a Feat for being Human.  Fighters will get one Bonus Feat.  Rogues will get two (Sneak Attack & Trapfinding).  Druids will get an Animal Companion, Nature Sense, and Wild Empathy.  Clerics get Turn/Rebuke Undead.  Bards get four (Bardic Knowledge & three types of Bardic Music).  Barbarians only get two (Fast Movement & Rage -- Illiteracy is an Anti-Feat).  Monks are VERY deceptive, and get FIVE+ Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Extra Damage (two jumps, from 1D3 for Medium to 1D6), Flurry of Blows/Misses, a Bonus Feat, and the Extraordinary AC Bonus which allows them to add their WIS Bonus (and more, at higher levels) to their unarmed AC (not to mention a host of Exotic Weapon Proficiencies)!  Paladins get only two (Detect & Smite Evil; Aura of Good is not an ability, nor is the aura that Clerics get).  Rangers get three (Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy).  Sorcerers & Wizards get Summom Familiar (and Scribe Scroll, for the Wizzers).  Note here that Magic Use is never counted as a new ability, as it is already balanced by the class' other (dis-)abilities.  So, as PCs advance, allow them to pick up Feats, THROUGH TRAINING (allowing the GM to control availability & drain off excess treasure) to equal the number set as the limit (FOUR, in this illustration).  The Monk?  (S)He already has FIVE+.  At level two, (s)he will get another Bonus Feat and Evasion, pay back the one extra, and still be eligible for to train for one more...Again, Armor/Shield/Weapon Proficiencies granted by the Class are ignored, here, or Fighters would be forever behind!  For Multi-classers, say, a Rogue becoming a Ranger, for every Non-Martial, Non-Exotic Weapon or Armor Proficiency (or other Feat/Special Ability) that a previous Class already granted (Simple Weapons & Light Armor Proficiencies, in this case), the Multiclassed PC can spend that time training for some other Feat, instead.For Prestige Classes, the new Class Abilities will be counted against the total allowed.  This may include special abilities which are NOT Feats (such as Nature Sense or Wild Empathy, Gate-Crashing, Trapfinding, etc.), as well.For characters without a PrC or Multiclass, however, the only abilities that can be gained are Feats, and they must meet the requirements normally.  Thus, there are stat-based limits, as well (and if they use spells or stat-boosting items to qualify, they LOSE THE FEAT when not using them, and any feets in that tree based upon the lost stat, as well)!So, what happens when a character advances in level, and gains new Class abilities?  Well, they get them, as usual, and they count against the level limit.  Prestige Classes can have requirements to join, and grant abilities, but no BAB, HPs, save bonuses, etc.  As they advance levels in their base Character Class, they can also be gaining levels in the Prestige Class, as long as they don't go over FOUR (the arbitrary limit).  If they do?  Let them pick the ones they get this level, and gain the rest the next, when they have an "open slot".Also note, here, that things like Rangers' Favored Enemies, Rogues' Sneak Attacks, maybe even Bards' Bardic Music, get treated as "Feat Trees", not new abilities.  Some work would have to be done balancing these out, against the base of a Feat.  (If a Rogue's increased Sneak Attack damage is treated as a Feat every few levels, it's best to just do that, instead).I also favor treating most (if not all) character abilities as Feats.  Make Trapfinding a Feat.  Tracking already is.  Make Nature Sense and Wild Empathy Feats.  Make Favored Enemies a Feat, and add it to the Fighters' list.  Make the Monks' WIS-Bonus-to-Unarmored-AC a Feat, as well as increased unarmed strike damage and movement speed Feats.  Restrict them by stats, BAB, and/or level, so that other classes can't get them before the base classes that have them, and either allow Feat Trees, or increase the abilities with level, as they work now.Thus, you can have a Fighter with the Unarmored AC and Unarmed Strike Damage of a Monk, when unarmored, who also has Improved Grappling, and Favored Enemy, for instance.  He could multiclass as a Monk to get that, but doesn't have to.  He could also leave out any abilities that he DOESN'T want, such as mystical ones.Rangers' weapon styles could become Feat Trees, instead of Feats.  Take TWF, at second level, get TW Defense at third, Improved TWF at sixth, Greater TWF at ninth (or so), and TWF Mastery at 11th (removes the -2/-2 penalties).  This could even be extended further, adding the TWF Rend/Pounce options from PHB II.  If these abilities are NOT treated as Feat Trees (basically what is being done, now), then it's best to remove the Light/No Armor restrictions, and just treat them as normal Feats.  For Archery, gain Point-Blank Shot at second, Rapid Shot at third, throw in Manyshot and/or Precise Shot, then Improved Precise Shot at higher levels, and end with the choice of other archery Feats with PBS as the Prerequisite.Now as for the Fighter, whatever restrictions the GM places on learning other Feats, the Fighter MUST ALWAYS be able to learn his Fighter Bonus Feats, so long as he has access to normal training (if the GM uses that rule), and the weapon(s) he is training with.  This is a Fighter Class feature, and is required to keep him up to snuff!  So, for instance, if the PCs are all shipwrecked on a desert island, and the GM usually requires training with a character who already knows the Feat in order to gain a new Feat, the Fighter can still learn any Feats on the Fighter's Bonus Feats list, as long as (for instance) he has access to a Bastard Sword when trying to acquire Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword).  Quick Draw, for instance, he could learn even without a weapon (using a stick or rock)!As for acquiring Feats, normally, learning a weapon requires access to the weapon, a trainer, time and a place to train, and whatever fees all of that requires.  Same for weapons & shields.  Metamagic requires magical ability (and Eschew Materials needs to be moved from General to Metamagic)!  Many Feats (such as Run) require nothing, as do, say, Skill Focus: Spot, Skill Focus: Listen, Alertness, Stealthy, Acrobatic, etc.  (May still require a teacher, of course!)Some Feats, such as Wild Empathy, may be restricted.  Metamagic Feats certainly should be, as should Item Creation Feats.  Learning them without spell ability is just plain dumb, anyway!Now to the innovative part.  Acquiring skill earns you Feats, which could reduce the number of Feats you are eligible to train for, as usual... or not.  If you are an Arcane Caster, are literate (and all are, as only Barbarians are illiterate, and joining any other class fixes that), then Arcane Spellcaster Level X+ automatically earns you the Scribe Scroll Feat.  Mages already get it... but Sorcerers and Bards don't (but would, now)!  Likewise, levels of Arcane (or Divine) spellcasting could be set for other Feats, and skill level requirements added.  As another example, in OD&D (1e), ANY Magic User of a certain level (3rd?) could make scrolls, and any MU of (IIRC) 9th level could make a potion with the aid of an Alchemist, and ANY MU could, by 11th.  In 4.0, the requirements could be Craft (Alchemy) 12+ Ranks & Caster level 9+, OR Caster level 11+ gives you the Brew Potion Feats, for free (as one of your FOUR/level arbitrary limit).  Want to do it sooner?  Get the Feat, and when you get the ranks, get a different one, instead.This idea is especially important if you have Bastion Press' Alchemy & Herbalism book, or such-like.  Rework the Feats to simply allow the ranks to give PCs the Feat, instead.  This idea already exists within the RAW, as well...  Any PC with 5+ ranks of Survival can automatically determine which way is north.  No DC:5 roll, it's automatic!  IIRC, I believe that fighting with a warhorse, in battle, is about DC:5-6, as well.  With a few ranks in Ride, this is automatic.  This idea just expands upon that basis.So, if you spend your time learning to climb, then you will eventually gain some Climb Feats (if there are any).  The ability to climb smooth walls (ordinarily impossible) using only a corner is an example (currently covered by a high DC).Anyway, I'm sure some people will hate this idea.  Others will simply think that four or five/level is too many (and I could live with fewer).  Some may question whether each use of Bardic Music is a Feat or Feat Tree, or rank/level-dependent.  It would take some good game-design to answer this question.  I don't claim to know.I DO know that all "empty levels" need to be removed from character classes.  I would like to see a list of "Druid/Ranger-Only" Feats, "Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard-Only" Feats, "Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Ranger-Only" Feats, "Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger-Only" Feats, etc., as well as the General, Metamagic, Item Creation, and so-on.  PCs could then use these to fill in the empty levels with abilities they want.  Prestige Classes could add Supernatural, Extraordinary, and/or Feat abilities, and have requirements to join, WITHOUT taking a level away from your PC class.Same effects, you just get there a different way...Need the party to sneak into the citadel dressed as enemy guardsmen, but have a Ranger (Light Armor Proficiency, only), a Wizard (None!), and a Monk (Ditto!) in the group, while the guardsmen all wear Fullplate?  Have the Fighter train them all in the three Armor Proficiencies (and the Ranger can learn something else, like Point-Blank Shot, while the others learn Light Armor Proficiency), and then everyone will be able to sneak in, without tripping over their Armor Check Penalties - they can already do this, in 3.5e, by spending a level to become Fighters, but why make them, when all they need is the Proficiency?)!  At higher levels, Prestige classes (with their Extraordinary & Supernatural abilities) will still be preferred, but the guys who don't qualify for any (because they didn't select it at level one!) can still either pick up the needed Feats to join, or just spend their time & money learning to do something more normal (General Feats), instead.  The Ranger with high Search can take Trapfinding, the Druid can take Favored Enemy (Undead), and later add (Aberrations), the Fighter can nearly match the Monk in unarmed & unarmored combat, if he wishes, and the Wizards & Sorcerers can pick up Uncanny Dodge (and later improve it), and add their WIS-Bonus-to-Unarmored-AC, like Monks do (and up that, at higher levels).I don't know, sounds like a good idea, to me, if it's properly balanced.  God knows that a whole heap of "Prestige" Classes weren't.  I want the PC Classes to be pretigious!  If you can gain three Armor Proficiencies, two Shield Proficiencies, Simple Weapons Proficiencies, and a whole HOST of Martial Weapons Proficiencies, in a single level, by multiclassing as a Fighter/Whatever, I don't see the problem with just allowing the restriction to be trained away with time & money (No one enforces the 20% XP Penalty, anyway, in my experience).(Well, that's what I'd do, if I ruled the world.  I'm sure the poison pens and flaming darts are already out, and angry missives will soon be coming my way...  I'd remove all the +4 bonuses, and give the PCs all of the "Improved..." Feats for Bull RushDisarm/Grapple/Sunder/Trip/Unarmed Strike, too, so that they'd get used more often, too!  I'd also give PCs Background Racial Skills, and a certain amount of skills/level, in addition to their skill points, too - I hate unknowledgable, incompetent PCs as a GM, as well as a player!) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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