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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5260096" data-attributes="member: 996">Seems like these are all doable in 4e, too.The main difference is that in 4e, there's generally a very clear build that lets you do something from level one on, while in 3.x you often had to craft an unintuitive build that only 'matured' at some later level.Defender Fighter or Paladin.Greatweapon Fighter or Barbarian (or Avenger, for that matter).Rogue does quite a bit of this.TWF Ranger, Tempest Fighter.OK, you got me, here, nothing sucks quite that hard in 4e.  You don't have to give up much to-hit to get in good damage.  Afterall, giving up to-hit to do 'more damage' can very easily do /less/ damage throughput.Well, barbarians do still rage.  And, there's Battlerager fighters.  They're called 'prayers,' now, but aside from that Paladins, Clerics and Avengers can all do that.The Warlock certainly curses & debuffs enemies pretty nastily.  A Scourge Warlock does so while weathering melee, and a pact blade can be a shortsword or rapier if you want the sword-wielding feel.Well, some /monsters/ do that now.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />   The Ranger does this indirectly.  With HQ going on the nearest target and Prime Shot, mobility to get in close and out again is a feature of the class.Thanks to melee training, that's everyone.  Rogue, big time, if you like DEX, though.    Monk's still beating on people with his bare hands.  The Brawling Fighter can do a bit of that, too, and some fun grappling moves.  ToB was a warm-up to 4e, which has Stances, encounters and dailies to beef up melee performance quite nicely.Heck, wizards can cast spells in melee (Close spells, like Thunderwave).  The Swordmage is the more obvious analog, though.All the archetypes you mention are covered.  They're done with fewer, more flexible mechanics (like keywords), and with much better balance across classes.One thing 3.x did well that 4e doesn't, on the melee front, though, is the 'tactical reach fighter' or 'battlefield control' build.  I'm surprised you missed that.   Which went a long way towards hopelessly breaking 3.x, too.  Each new mechanic potentially interacts with each prior mechanic to spawn broken combos and system breakdowns.</blockquote>

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