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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5261682" data-attributes="member: 71571">Class features of the sorcerer were non-existant.And sorcerers could be made different from one another because of their limitations on how many spells they could take.As irrelevant to the discussion as Hackmaster.The difference between the three:Clerics chose one time a day they recovered.  Rest was not an issue.Wizards, rest was an issue.Sorcerers cast spells like bards with more spells.  This 'like a dragon' thing is fluff... most monsters cast spells like that.  In fact, the most boring thing to read in a monster description was 'cast spells like a sorcerer.'  Flavorless.  Bland.So, to say that sorcerers gain flavor because monsters cast spells like them blandly?This is what I don't get tho... how is being able to do all sorts of amazing things as riders to your attacks not interacting mechanics?  In fact, isn't the central design point behind every 4th edition attack worth a damn that it -does- interract beyond damage?[quote[Before fifth level... so you are ignoring saves bonus, smite evil animal companion, spellcasting, track, different skill points and class skills, and don't let start with the fighter (two-hand power attacker? Two weapon fighetr? Polearm wielder? Sword and board? archer?).</blockquote>And fourth edition doesn't do that?In fact... compare a 1st level sword and board fighter.  In 3d edition, he can attack for 1d8 damage... and is harder to hit.In 4th edition, he can attack for 1d8 damage and push a foe away, or pull the foe into his spot, allowing a curbstomping, he can swing through and hit another enemy.... and he is harder to hit... and his allies are harder to hit... and he'll punch them for trying.You're claiming differences in equipment made huge differences in 3rd edition while ignoring the fact those differences still exist and are compounded by the differences in characters and fighting styles that are inherent in merely uttering the words 'at-will attack power.'Smite Evil?  That's an example of a flavorful attack, but does it -really- compare favorably to hitting your foe so hard that not only does he take massive damage from your piety, but the sheer holy energy then leaks out and heals one of your friends of his wounds.You want to talk flavorful mechanics... compare -that-.Bonus damage, or Bonus Damage that undoes your enemy's evil.Seriously.  Compare. Some don't consider pathfinder to be the right direction to go.  If your complaint is '4th edition is not pathfinder' well... you're right it isn't.It's also not Vampire: The Requiem.That doesn't mean the differences do not exist... it means they don't have the ability to see the forest for the trees.  They have a feeling that four different game mechanics must exist for things to be different... that characters must be playing actual different games for them to be considered different.That's an interesting viewpoint, but it's terribly myopic.4edition has everything one needs to run a gameworld.  Does it try to simulate every aspect of it?  No.  Why?  Because doing so is unnecessary.  Do you -need- rules to determine the economy in a town?  No.  Why?  Because you're making the town, make the economy what you need it to be.  No amount of 'simulationist' rules can do that accurately.Seriously, ask yourself -why- you'd need a rule to randomly determine whether or not magical items are available in Slobadia... is it because you don't know?  How do you not know?  Are you not -making- Slobadia to fit the needs of your campaign?  Do you envision Slobadia being big enough to have magic item shops?  No?  Then why do you need a chart to tell you how to make your damn city for you?Besides, simulationist rules in roleplaying games often end up being poor simulations, failing to explain how a villiage of peasents making 1 silver piece a month, paying 1 copper piece a day for food, can ever not end up in debt by 2 silver pieces a month, while simultaneously gathering up the 50 gold pieces the party is being offered to save the town mayor from kobold invasion... or how the kobolds manage to have coffers greater than any amount of business men in such an economy could ever hope to accumulate...It's okay to want rules to simulate a game world... but please be sure they do not immediately fall apart and become unable to support such basic assumptions like 'At some point the PCs need to be paid.'  BAD simulationist rules are terrible.  And D&D's simulationism has NEVER been particularily good.[/QUOTE]

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