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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5262490" data-attributes="member: 87792">False.  +-10 is a pretty huge swing.  What happens in 3e beyond level 5 or so is that there are effectively two levels of skill.  Trained well and don't bother.  The 1/2 level thing doesn't make skills matter less.  It means that skills remain relevant rather than a binary switch.Only if by Multiclass you mean massively so rather than picking up some skills along the way.  In which case you want Hybrid rather than Multiclass. Yes.  You don't have to pay for spellcasting in 3e.  You do for big spells in 4e.  Huge difference.  It depends where you add diversity whether it's a problem.  Adding options that can be chosen for a character is good.  Adding options that get added to a character without meaningful penalty is power creep, pure and simple. Yes.  The Batman Wizard makes the rogue irrelevant and means that all most other people need to do is a mopping up operation.  That's damn well played.  It also breaks the game.  The two are not opposites.  The making the other PCs irrelevant is precisely because the Batman Wizard is played so well. The bit about the L20 Sorceror with 23 ranks in Knowledge(Arcana)?  It's what you wrote.  And given the ties to power sources in 4e, claiming this as a 3e fluff advantage is silly.  THEY ARE IN 4E.  Components, cost, time to cast.  It's called Ritual Casting.  And the components there actually matter.  As does the skill you use to cast them (and not just whether you can maintain your concentration).The only time when spellcasting you don't need components and time is for specialised combat magic (OK, Bards and Invokers have no cost for a couple of rituals per day.)  Combat magic needs to happen under pressure.  The rest of the time the magic is more the way you claim to want it than 3e is.Rogues shouldn't be boring in 3e.  Or any edition.  They excel out of combat.  It's the poor fighter in 3e that's tedious at low levels.  You assume 4e has no feats.Where optimum = forced min-maxing?  With feat chains, your feats cease to be so many choices because it's best to run the chains.So.  That's dodge, mobility, spring attack, whirlwind attack, Improved Shield defence, two weapon fighting, shield bash?  8 feats to get an attack mode they do every time?  This isn't options you're looking for.  It's replacements.Have you even read the PHB2?  Or know a thing about 4e Sorcerors?  There are currently four power sources for sorcerors (Dragon, Cosmic, Chaos, Storm).  Each has its own pattern of bonusses and resistances (with resistance being to one of the types that matches a breath type) - and has certain powers with riders if it has that power source.  Invokers can directly commune (if weakly) with their God (Hand of Fate free 1/day).  And that's before getting into Wrath, Protection, and Malediction aspects and the backlash for malediction.The PHB 1 classes are the simplest and often blandest (Warlocks are an exception, granted).  But if you're going to assume that's all that exists in 4e, I'm going to take you back to 3.0 core.  Except with exception based design it's easier to add things to 4e without breaking the game.And if you want the obscure stuff, you take ritual casting as a feat.  Say 99%.  At least.  All it does is say "The cleric must be nailed down for 1 hour/day along with the wizard".</blockquote>

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