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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kaiyanwang" data-source="post: 5262766" data-attributes="member: 91656">Maybe you are right. (IMO, even if some class has too few, you customize better with skill points but whatever).For multiclass I mean the freedom of build a fighter dipping rogue, vice versa, or a 50:50 fighter/rogue. Puggins indeed raised a good point (see below).Well, another generaization here. Sometimes you have to pay for spellcasting in 3.5 and Pathfinder, too. But my point was that each day thay utility for the Ranger would change, raising in number at higher level and increasinglt hugely the flexibility.  Once you open a splatbook, you are not forced to add everything it contains to your campaing. One could even ban core spells, and switch them with non core ones. In that case the splat saves you.. or just allows you to built a different world. No. The true Batman makes everyone great. if this can be degenerated, I concede. but the fact that several spells in 3.5 needed reworkind, does not mean that I cannot make a spellbook mechanic intersting and flavourful. See, in AD&D IIRC there was a rule about known spells and int score (the wiz int score put a limit). That was a limitation like in 4th, but didn't seem the same way arbitrary.That started as an example of diversity (how they cast spell and this mechanics make them differen from Wizard and is reflected in monsters).. I don't follow you anymore here <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> Components didn't matter before? And the fact that there is not recognizable analogy between rituals and combat magic (combat magic is more similar to the fighter swinging a sword) increases the disconnect for someone. I want to remind you that our discussion started from this - I was wondering about  what make people feel the sameness starting from what I miss from previous edition.. my observations started from the essentials and their "look back" style.. or at least attempt.I was just joking about the fact that some people (not you, reading the sentence above) finds the rogue very boring in 3rd edition, while two same maneuver (move tumbling and stab) has been merged in one, given a fancy name and WHAM! is suddenly cool.Again, we played the Fighter class very differently, I'm sure of it. For sure could have been done far better (how feats scale, dead levels), but nevertheless...(Unless you are talking about class skills amd skill points.. in this case you are right <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/worried.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":-S" title="Uhm    :-S" data-shortname=":-S" />)Feats in 4th are less a class feature for fighter (barring Essentials <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />). The real maneuvers fighter performs are in the powers. Am I wrong?I meant the capstone feat. My bad. And I'm pretty sure that they are even more(out shield defence, add shield slam, power attack, improved bull rush, and maybe improved trip) but is not the point.But the point is here: the fighter will push people from level 1 with power attack and improved bull rush. And don't start with the argumentation that tide of iron deals dmage - 1st level enemies in 3rd have not the same HP than in 4th, you will bash their skull the round later, for now.The point is that the way the fighter will play will change dramatically each feat he takes. And the weapon used. The whirliwind above will be very different if using a shield and bull rushes, or a glaive and trip. The glaive itself will switch from control to damage basing on power attack.And the feats you took to reach this point have a great versatility, too (you can use improved trip with the glaive above, but with the bolas too).Now, I concede that some feat was lame and remains that way (mobility) <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh    :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" />Point being that breaking the game is the least of my concerns. I prefer diversity. But I will take a look, because I trust your knowledge of the game.For sure, make the fisrt core so bland has not been a smart move by WotC part..and spend 10 minutes to cast a silence! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Different gamestyles: Not surprised we look at the game with different eyes.. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Well, let see what these essentials will do for me or you <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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