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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6154485" data-attributes="member: 6669384">I recently started a thread on the ethics of using an enemy with a Save or Die attack as their opening shot, in that case a Banshee (DC26 Fort save or die).In that situation, I had to question the use of the monster and that attack.Looking on a broader scale, though, there are a lot of "Save or you're dead" effects out there, from the 1st level Sleep spell right on up the line.Then there are things like Vorpal weapons where death is a nat-20 away and you'll never know until it happens.I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but let's see what develops:   Thinking about this sort of thing on a broader basis:  Is "Zap, you're dead" a problem in the game?  If the answer is "sometimes", then at what odds does it go from "not a problem" to "something of a problem" to "That's just wrong."?Using a Banshee as a sample point:  It's a CR 17 monster from MMII (some take that to mean a CR18).An 18th level Fighter has a +11 Fort Save, plus CON of probably 3 or 4 more.  That's close to a 50/50 on the Save, better if they have any Resistance items at all.An 18th level Druid is about the same, as is the Cleric.  Classes that don't have good Fort Saves are five points lower at +6, plus CON (Probably +2 to +3) and Resistance items.  Presuming +5 items by that level, they're looking at a 40% survival rate per attack.On average, the Banshee can scream every 3 rounds.By comparison a Symbol of Death (8th level spell) will have a minimum Save DC of 22.  Similar area (60 foot burst).  That 22 Fort save presumes a minimum casing stat for the spell, at 18.  You'd need a 26 casting stat to match the Save DC of the Banshee.  Not unheard of.The Banshee scream can be directed, and can be repeated.  The Symbol can't be directed, but lasts two and a half hours, minimum.  The Symbol becomes available at 15th level, so it's not unreasonable if it's a shade weaker.  (It also won't chase you down, but that's another story. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )Finger of Death is lower level (7th instead of 8th), with a correspondingly easier Save, is single target and with a comparable range (Close : 25 + 5 per 2 levels, or 55 feet minimum v 60 feet for the others.)As the Saves for characters that are level-appropriate for these spells and effects are correspondingly lower, they seem about as fair/unfair as the Banshee wail.Attacks like the Vorpal blade have a 95% survival rate at every level (It decapitates on a Natural 20, otherwise does normal damage), yet can be used several times per round. Not sure how to it fits in on with the spell and supernatural Death effects, but I think it belongs in the discussion anyway.What do you think of "zap, you're dead" powers, spells and weapons?  Acceptable?  Tolerable?  Problems?</blockquote>

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