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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 6156854" data-attributes="member: 17106">The "predetermined outcome" I was referring to is routine victory by the PCs that uses 20% of their use-limited resources.That said, how is an area SoD going to kill that many PCs? Given the PCs' ability to spot the creature before it is in range, the party's likely behavior of splitting up (casters and ranged fighters really shouldn't be anywhere near), and the reasonable likelihood of PCs being able to identify the creature and respond to its ability, it is not exactly a given that anyone will die. Even if you just take the save math, many of these DCs are quite low for their intended level. If you were to throw an SoD monster against a character of any level, there are a number of examples where characters would be under virtually no danger. You'd have to do a lot to support that statement.This is wrong on a few levels. First off, a red dragon against an "appropriate level" party is quite likely to kill a PC (or TPK them) if played to its intelligence. The same is true of many highly intelligent monsters, like liches or some of the better outsiders. Often, they are not played that way.Second, like several monsters in the Monster Manual, there are dragons well past CR 20, which means that the core game posits monsters that a party of the maximum level allowed by the core rules could not reasonably be expected to defeat. A great wyrm red dragon should kill an entire party of any characters you build without using the epic rules. So yes, there are monsters that are built to kill PCs.</blockquote>

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