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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2310207" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok.  I'll accept that without too much quibble.  I'd add that if they are well developed symbols, that we will see our own weaknesses, lusts, and sins as reflections of their monstrousity.  Sure, I'll accept that.Wait a minute.  How did we suddenly get here from there?   I think that is a non sequitur, and I'm not going to buy it until you develop an argument to support it.  It's not necessary for demons to be recognizable as twisted reflections of humanity.  It's only necessary for them to be recognizable as that destructive maiming nihilistic impluse within us.  It is not at all necessary that they share any larger attributes with us, and certainly no qualities within ourselves that we would find admirable and attractive.  Any attractive properties they possess must be a sham, or at least based upon the fact that evil is mysteriously attractive even when it is disturbing and loathesome.For example, its easy to recognize the twisted humanity within Gollum, because there is a portion of him (Smeagol) who is worth saving.   Frodo has mercy on Gollum because he sees in Gollum himself, and has pity on him.   It's hard to imagine Frodo seeing the same twisted humanity in the Balrog of Moria, or seeing something in the Balrog of Moria that is worth saving and having pity on it.  In fact, if Frodo sees in the Balrog something worthy of saving, then arguably Frodo is decieved because the whole point of 'demons' is to have something that stands for what is not worth saving because it is purely evil.   IF we take the Balrog of Moria and make it a twisted reflection of humanity, then we haven't made it deeper - we've simply started erasing certain symbols from our mythic vocabulary - and if we ever want to replace those symbols then we have to invent replacements - HPL's unknowable alien evil that you previously referred to.  It seems to me that at some level your arguing against yourself.   First you boldly state that the point of demons is to remind us that evil exists.  Then you want to say that they must therefore be twisted reflections of humanity.   But this seems like saying to me that they need not be, nor should they, be wholly evil because they are no more (or no less) than twisted humans, and to be recognizable as twisted reflections of humanity they must have empathetic qualities (like the aforementioned Hannibal Lector).  It seems to me like you are saying instead that pure evil doesn't exist, and that demons are there to remind us that everything is more complex than that.   I reject such a usage as short sighted and a betrayal of the very definition of demons as the embodiment of evil.Demons give us something as a symbol that mere twisted humans can never give us.  We'd never want to cast any person in the role of utterly irredemnable and complete evil, because even if we must take steps to defend ourselves from evil - the destruction of any person is a moment of loss and tragedy.  As utterly evil and unredemnable beings, demons are well past that point of tragedy which allows us to have a symbol of something that we can completely and utterly reject in a way that would be troublesome if the thing we were rejecting was a person.</blockquote>

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